Work on the "Why?" pages

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

On 2/3/11 3:37 PM, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Development/Content/Why

As I am not very familiar with wikis, and I do not have the "why" pages
content at hand, may I ask someone to copy that content and paste it
into a document, and send me the document off list?

I need a document on my desktop, and I will elaborate on that. Thanks.

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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 2/3/11 3:37 PM, Michael Wheatland wrote:
>
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Development/Content/Why
>
> As I am not very familiar with wikis, and I do not have the "why" pages
> content at hand, may I ask someone to copy that content and paste it into a
> document, and send me the document off list?
>
> I need a document on my desktop, and I will elaborate on that. Thanks.

There is no agreed content for these pages yet. The wiki page is to
establish an outline and develop content for these pages.

I feel it is important to prompt potential new end users what they
could do if they use LibreOffice. These pages will allow that, while
pointing to the 'feature page' which outlines how they do it.

I will add your ideas around TCO, ease of migration, stability,
robustness, deployment to the page.
If you wish to suggest any more ideas for the 'Why' pages ie. reasons
that end users would want to use LibreOffice, you can post your ideas
here and I can add them to the wiki page.

Once we have all of the ideas developed I will put them out for review
before publishing.

Michael Wheatland

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Italo Vignoli-2 Italo Vignoli-2
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

On 2/3/11 4:26 PM, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> There is no agreed content for these pages yet. The wiki page is to
> establish an outline and develop content for these pages.

Is exactly because I know the problem that I need a document with the
contect that has already been developed.

If I do not have that content in a document, I cannot make any
constructive criticism, or suggest any change.

I do not want to start another discussion.

If you can send me the document, then send it, if you cannot, then do
not reply explaining why the document is useless, because it is useless
for you but not for me, if I have requested it.

Thanks.

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

In reply to this post by italovignoli
Hi Italo, :-)

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 20:17, Italo Vignoli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I would rather prefer to take away the pages as they are now, especially the
> "why for business" which is exactly what we should not tell businesses (I
> have had comments from CIOs who have switched to OOo, and are very
> negative).
>
> If the pages stay as they are, I will ask the SC to issue a formal request
> for taking them out, and I will do this soon.

I read this as a request to take the pages out of circulation, so I
complied with your wish.

I do understand your later clarifications. Perhaps we should just put
the pages back online when they've been further developed and looked
at by you? Or what are your suggestions in this respect?

David Nelson

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Italo Vignoli-2 Italo Vignoli-2
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Got the text, thanks

I have the text of the pages, thanks to Nino for acting

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Italo Vignoli-2 Italo Vignoli-2
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

In reply to this post by davidnelson
On 2/3/11 5:25 PM, David Nelson wrote:

> I read this as a request to take the pages out of circulation, so I
> complied with your wish.

Hi David, you are right, my statement was too strong, and in fact you
have done what I did request. In a sense, it was my fault.

Please keep in mind, though, that I am not the project, but a member of
the project, and there should always be some consensus before changing
the current situation.

> I do understand your later clarifications. Perhaps we should just put
> the pages back online when they've been further developed and looked
> at by you? Or what are your suggestions in this respect?

Yes, I think that the pages should be online after WE have had a look at
them and reached a consensus based on several factors, and not only on
theoretical thinking about users.

Thanks, Italo

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

In reply to this post by Italo Vignoli-2
Hi Italo!

Am Donnerstag, den 03.02.2011, 16:05 +0100 schrieb Italo Vignoli:
> Please agree on the following (without any order):

Thanks for these points - I fully agree to all points (without any
order).

Cheers,
Christoph


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Narayan Aras Narayan Aras
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RE: Work on the "Why?" pages

In reply to this post by Italo Vignoli-2

Hi Italo,

> > I do think your inputs should have come before I wrote those pages.
>
> Yes, it is true, but I did not have the time.
>
> > Why do SC-members have to reverse everything post-facto while remaining inert when it counts?
> > I don't buy this "no time" concept. You wasted my time and effort through your tardiness, and I don't like it.
>
> Sorry, this "no time" concept belongs to volunteer work. I have told
> several times that if there is a specific issue someone should send me
> an email and/or ping me on Skype.

> I have a daily job, a family, friends
> and TDF, and I have been involved in the community for over seven years
> and no one has ever complained about my availability.

That applies to EACH and EVERY volunteer. So we should not bring this in every time we discuss something.

 
> A community project is by definition a slow moving project, because is
> based on voluntary work. This is a fact and not a choice. If you do not
> feel comfortable with this situation, I do not think that we can easily
> find a solution.

We are not talking of the "pace of the project", but meeting deadlines set by SC itself.
I did not set the release date.
We had to finish the website before that launch date AND it had to have those "why" pages.
The marketing inputs should have come before that. They did not.
Where does that leave us?

> > I also gave you a detailed feedback on the logo/tagline for the website.
>
> The logo and tagline situation is evolving. Now there is a logo without
> tagline, and I think that there will be further evolutions.
>
> > I hope you will have the professional courtesy to reply that mail (remember it is there on wiki too).
>
> Sorry, but I am not supposed to reply to every email, especially if I am
> working in a different direction (and I think it was clear I was working
> at the launch activities).

Your email answer mentions that you will be writing to me later on that issue.
I only expect that you would do what you stated.

Regards,
-Narayan





     
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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

Still no further contributions to the collaboration on the wiki.
As Italo has said, we are happy that the site is up, and there is no
need to rush, but we do need to gain at least some momentum on the
further development of these pages.

Can people contribute some ideas or criticism on the suggested
structure I have published on the wiki. Anyone who knows of Creative
Commons licensed images that would be appropriate for the content, can
you insert the links in the wiki:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Development/Content/Why

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sophi sophi
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

Hi Michael, *
On 04/02/2011 08:20, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> Still no further contributions to the collaboration on the wiki.
> As Italo has said, we are happy that the site is up, and there is no
> need to rush, but we do need to gain at least some momentum on the
> further development of these pages.
>
> Can people contribute some ideas or criticism on the suggested
> structure I have published on the wiki. Anyone who knows of Creative
> Commons licensed images that would be appropriate for the content, can
> you insert the links in the wiki:
>
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Development/Content/Why

I've added ideas for Home use, but as Italo, I prefer working on
structuring a document that introduce ideas than collecting them on a wiki.
So I'll work with Italo on the Business and Gov parts if he needs me and
will propose some content for Education and Home after the week end (I
hope I get enough time).

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Sophie Gautier <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've added ideas for Home use, but as Italo, I prefer working on structuring
> a document that introduce ideas than collecting them on a wiki.
> So I'll work with Italo on the Business and Gov parts if he needs me and
> will propose some content for Education and Home after the week end (I hope
> I get enough time).
>
> Kind regards
> Sophie

That sounds great Sophie. If you and Italo want to collaborate in a
document format we will integrate this into the ideas generated on the
wiki.

After we have gathered the content (text, images, etc) together I
think it would be best to get some of our design brothers and sisters
to integrate this into a snappy layout with punch lines which then
links to more detailed content.

I will continue to work on more detailed content for the ideas that I
introduced as well as finding some rich media that represent some
other ideas.

Michael Wheatland

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

In reply to this post by Narayan Aras
Narayan Aras wrote:

> That applies to EACH and EVERY volunteer. So we should not bring this in every time we discuss something.

You have raised the concern about deadlines, not me. Deadlines in a
volunteer based project have a different meaning that in a real job, and
this should be clear for everyone. Complaining about missed deadlines
does not help. We all know that we miss deadlines, but we have learned
to cope with the problem. In the long range, a single missed deadline
counts nothing.

> We are not talking of the "pace of the project", but meeting deadlines set by SC itself.
> I did not set the release date.
> We had to finish the website before that launch date AND it had to have those "why" pages.
> The marketing inputs should have come before that. They did not.
> Where does that leave us?

I think there is a basic misunderstanding about the "why" pages. They
might be important, but they are not key, so the web site could live
without them.

The experience tells us that in the geographies where OOo has been more
successful the web site has contributed in a negligible way to the
awareness.

I can tell you that the Italian web site sucks, and has not been updated
for the last 5 years, but OOo in Italy is well over 20% market share and
still growing.

The web is an excellent marketing tool, but is a single component of a
comprehensive strategy, and - for sure - not the most important.

Yes, the strategy should be written somewhere, but until we are caught
in endless discussions I will never find the time to write it down and
it will remain in my mind and in the minds of people I have talked with,
like the ones that will be in Brussels tomorrow and on Sunday (I will
present some ideas about the marketing strategy).

I will share the presentation, which I have still to start writing.

> Your email answer mentions that you will be writing to me later on that issue.
> I only expect that you would do what you stated.

No, I will not answer that email because the logo and tagline problems
are low in priority now, and we still have to elaborate about them in
relation to the development of the project.

The logo will evolve, but is not a key issue. In a free software project
the brand is not the logo but all the intangibles around. The document
icons, for instance, are probably more important that the logo.

If there is a domain where marketing theory does not work is free
software. Sun has applied the marketing theory to OOo to get to zero
results in the US. Communities have used common sense and some theory to
achieve far better results.

Sorry, but I am feed up with ranting, and from now on when I will not
answer a message it will mean that I find the topic as too oriented to a
rant than to a solution.

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sophi sophi
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Re: Work on the "Why?" pages

In reply to this post by Wheatbix
Hi Michael,
On 04/02/2011 10:08, Michael Wheatland wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Sophie Gautier<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> I've added ideas for Home use, but as Italo, I prefer working on structuring
>> a document that introduce ideas than collecting them on a wiki.
>> So I'll work with Italo on the Business and Gov parts if he needs me and
>> will propose some content for Education and Home after the week end (I hope
>> I get enough time).
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Sophie
>
> That sounds great Sophie. If you and Italo want to collaborate in a
> document format we will integrate this into the ideas generated on the
> wiki.

Yes, no problem, only the format is easier I think for Italo and me (old
school you know ;-) to work on, but the final thing have to go on the
wiki where the collaborative work is to be done.
>
> After we have gathered the content (text, images, etc) together I
> think it would be best to get some of our design brothers and sisters
> to integrate this into a snappy layout with punch lines which then
> links to more detailed content.
yes
>
> I will continue to work on more detailed content for the ideas that I
> introduced as well as finding some rich media that represent some
> other ideas.

Ok great, thanks!

Just one thing I think is important to keep in mind and I wanted to
share with all of us: keep it simple.

Users coming to open source are quiet shy, they need to be reassure by
very simple words and usage, even if it means not showing the killer
apps we are very proud of, just something that talk easily to them and
do not put them in a posture where they could feel impressed or lost is
very important. Few words, great pictures, simple path :-)

Kind regards
Sophie
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