about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.

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zahra a zahra a
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about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.

hi every one.
i read the previous post about unicode support in libreoffice and
became very worried.
does libreoffice support unicode independently?
i mean if someone install a fresh windows (without installing any
font), is it possible to read the persian and arabic documents and
write the documents in two languages?
a person who has a fresh windows, does not install separate windows,
and also the only office program is libreoffice.
and my second question is, how to configure libreoffice to support
persian and arabic diacritics like the letters?
i reported a bug for this problem almost two years ago and without any
result until now.
i pray for you and request devine mercy and grace for you.

--
Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find
written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel [who] enjoins them
good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things
and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their
burden and the shackles which were upon them; so [as for] those who
believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which
has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.
holy quran, chapter 7, verse 157.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org

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Gary Dale Gary Dale
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Re: about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.

On 04/07/16 02:02 PM, nasrin khaksar wrote:

> hi every one.
> i read the previous post about unicode support in libreoffice and
> became very worried.
> does libreoffice support unicode independently?
> i mean if someone install a fresh windows (without installing any
> font), is it possible to read the persian and arabic documents and
> write the documents in two languages?
> a person who has a fresh windows, does not install separate windows,
> and also the only office program is libreoffice.
> and my second question is, how to configure libreoffice to support
> persian and arabic diacritics like the letters?
> i reported a bug for this problem almost two years ago and without any
> result until now.
> i pray for you and request devine mercy and grace for you.
>
The short answer is no. While a document may contain unicode characters,
they still need to be displayed which requires a font or localization
file. Normally people who can read a language have the files installed.
If you don't have a font for a particular language, it won't display
correctly.

Windows will use a system font for text editors and may replace fonts
for word processors, etc. with one that has similar metrics. However it
won't install a character set for a language it doesn't have.

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steveedmonds steveedmonds
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Re: about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.



On 2016-07-05 07:00, Gary Dale wrote:

> On 04/07/16 02:02 PM, nasrin khaksar wrote:
>> hi every one.
>> i read the previous post about unicode support in libreoffice and
>> became very worried.
>> does libreoffice support unicode independently?
>> i mean if someone install a fresh windows (without installing any
>> font), is it possible to read the persian and arabic documents and
>> write the documents in two languages?
>> a person who has a fresh windows, does not install separate windows,
>> and also the only office program is libreoffice.
>> and my second question is, how to configure libreoffice to support
>> persian and arabic diacritics like the letters?
>> i reported a bug for this problem almost two years ago and without any
>> result until now.
>> i pray for you and request devine mercy and grace for you.
>>
> The short answer is no. While a document may contain unicode
> characters, they still need to be displayed which requires a font or
> localization file. Normally people who can read a language have the
> files installed. If you don't have a font for a particular language,
> it won't display correctly.
>
> Windows will use a system font for text editors and may replace fonts
> for word processors, etc. with one that has similar metrics. However
> it won't install a character set for a language it doesn't have.
>

If you go File>Properties>Font and tick Embed are the fonts then
embedded in the document to be able to read it even if you don't have
those fonts installed?
Steve


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zahra a zahra a
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Re: about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.

thanks so much for your answers.
i ment that does libreoffice install the require fonts by default?
and i use windows, without installing any extra fonts, is it possible
to read and write persian and arabic documents?
when in two years ago i used microsoft office, i did not install any
fonts and microsoft office recognized my documents.
for this reason, i asked about libreoffice.
does libreoffice recognize persian and arabic characters immediately
after finishing its installation?

On 7/5/16, Steve Edmonds <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On 2016-07-05 07:00, Gary Dale wrote:
>> On 04/07/16 02:02 PM, nasrin khaksar wrote:
>>> hi every one.
>>> i read the previous post about unicode support in libreoffice and
>>> became very worried.
>>> does libreoffice support unicode independently?
>>> i mean if someone install a fresh windows (without installing any
>>> font), is it possible to read the persian and arabic documents and
>>> write the documents in two languages?
>>> a person who has a fresh windows, does not install separate windows,
>>> and also the only office program is libreoffice.
>>> and my second question is, how to configure libreoffice to support
>>> persian and arabic diacritics like the letters?
>>> i reported a bug for this problem almost two years ago and without any
>>> result until now.
>>> i pray for you and request devine mercy and grace for you.
>>>
>> The short answer is no. While a document may contain unicode
>> characters, they still need to be displayed which requires a font or
>> localization file. Normally people who can read a language have the
>> files installed. If you don't have a font for a particular language,
>> it won't display correctly.
>>
>> Windows will use a system font for text editors and may replace fonts
>> for word processors, etc. with one that has similar metrics. However
>> it won't install a character set for a language it doesn't have.
>>
>
> If you go File>Properties>Font and tick Embed are the fonts then
> embedded in the document to be able to read it even if you don't have
> those fonts installed?
> Steve
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> deleted
>


--
Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find
written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel [who] enjoins them
good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things
and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their
burden and the shackles which were upon them; so [as for] those who
believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which
has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.
holy quran, chapter 7, verse 157.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org

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CVAlkan CVAlkan
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Re: about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.

For the list: Nasrin sent me several replies privately listing some discoveries and conclusions, but I suspect others can benefit from this discussion, so I'm putting it back here. Documentation on this subject is sparse, often outdated, addressed to one operating system without specifying which one, and so forth.

I know for a fact that there are others on this list who are familiar with and have accomplished what he is trying to do, so if we can get him squared away, the documentation team will have some more fodder for their future efforts. So, without further ado ...

Hi Nasrin:

Let's see if I can walk you through how to address your issue. Don't skip these steps, since they will help establish a sort of baseline ...

Select the font you wish to use, and then go to the Insert | Special Character ... dialog; scroll down through the Subset list at the top to see if Arabic (for example) is listed. If not, try selecting a different font until you locate one with the scripts you desire. Don't be terribly surprised if none of your fonts have support for Arabic; that's an issue that can be dealt with easily.

While LibreOffice does install a few fonts that contain the required glyphs for Arabic and Persian, that is application dependent, and therefore subject to change, so I would suggest that you locate and install some font that you know is suitable: a version of the FreeFont family is good for testing, since I know for a fact that it supports Arabic/Farsi/Persian characters (not the Languages, mind you - I'll mention that later, since it's an entirely different issue.) I'll use FreeSerif for this example.

In any case, select the FreeSerif font, and then use the Insert | Special Character ... dialog again; scroll down to Arabic, and select a few characters. Note that they SHOULD BE entered from right to left regardless of whether you've set up any particular support in LibreOffice. If the characters display properly, continue in Writer as follows (I am assuming from what you've written that you have no input method enabled; if that's wrong then I'm misunderstanding what you're asking):

Although highly impractical for regular use, type the following just as I've shown (note that the [Alt]+[x] command works ONLY in newer versions of Writer):

627[Alt+x]644[Alt+x]644[Alt+x]63a[Alt+x]629[Alt+x]

What you should now see is: اللغة, a word I hope you recognize: note that the characters are displayed in the reverse order of what you typed (i.e. they are automagically set right to left). What you have just done is entered the hexadecimal codes for each character and used [Alt+x] to change the codes into their actual glyphs. If this doesn't work, post to the list; this needs to be fixed before proceeding. For the record, this means typing the 6 character, the 2 character, the 7 character, and then holding down the Alt key while typing x.

You've now established that characters can be entered (using their hex codes) and displayed properly in Writer, so long as you have a suitable font available. You'll eventually want to settle on some fonts that you like, but for now, continue with FreeSerif.

The next step is to find and activate a suitable IME (Input Method Editor); I can't help you there as I don't use Windows, but perhaps someone else on this list can recommend their favorite. Google is your friend.

What an IME does is probably best explained by describing how I would enter the word above:

Assume that I'm writing in English and that I wish to type the next word in Arabic: I would use my "Hot Key" (You set this up when installing the input method) to switch my keyboard mapping to the next script in my list; in my case, I have several scripts defined, so assume that I've used the hot key one or more times to get to Arabic. No matter what input method you choose, there will typically be an indicator somewhere on the screen that lets you know which script your keyboard is set to.

Then I would simply type the following keys on my keyboard: hggym hguvfdi

That's it; this works because the first character ا is located on the English [H] key (but lower case of course, since we didn't press the shift key) - and so forth: this is, of course, tricky if you are not familiar with touch typing and don't have additional markers on your key caps but, again, all the IMEs I've used over the years have some sort of keyboard display that you can use to cheat. There ARE keyboards available with multiple character sets printed on the keys, but these tend to be quite expensive and, if you want to use more than two scripts, you're just out of luck. There also used to be some clear stickers available for certain scripts, but the only ones I ever tried (for Thai, back in the late 1980s I'm afraid) eventually peeled off and stuck in some places where they hurt more than helped.

Now, for language support: Knowing how to type اللغة العربيط doesn't mean that the words are spelled correctly, so you would need to install Writer's spell checker for the Arabic or Farsi LANGUAGE (I don't know if there is a thesaurus available for either, but that also might be useful to you - most common languages I've used have pretty complete support in Writer, including hyphenation rules and so forth - one of the languages I use is Thai, which has no space between words, which requires some interesting technology to insure that line breaks as well as hyphenation work well, which it generally does, even with nothing special set up in Writer).

One thing you will also notice about the phrase I typed in the last paragraph is that some of the actual characters change quite a bit depending on which characters follow; if you speak or read Arabic or Farsi, you will be familiar with the reasons that occurs -- pretty slick in my view. But this is NOT a function of Writer; this is a function of modern font technology; this will also work if you simply type into a text editor (or command line prompt, although you will likely be given an error message when you do that unless you've aliased some commands for convenience) - try it with FreeSerif by going to a command prompt.

Writer is responsible for doing word processing sorts of things, such as formatting and so forth. The only thing that Writer doesn't do for Arabic scripts which it does for most other scripts is full justification - in the case of Arabic scripts this would be Kashideh justification; in practice, that isn't a huge drawback, but would be nice to see someday, as it would indicate a new level of maturity in Office Suites.

Assuming all went well above, you've now established that you CAN type what you want on your system. That leaves the problem of making it *convenient*, and the definition of that depends a whole lot on how often you do it and so forth.

If, after trying all the above, if there are other questions you have, post them along with the specific languages you wish to deal with, the type of keyboard you have (especially how the keys are labeled and so forth), the operating system you're using (e.g. I think you said Windows, but which version and so forth).

By the way, the reason Windows used to display your documents perfectly is because you likely had the extended versions of Arial or something similar, which had/has support for a much wider selection of characters than is usually installed on a U.S. machine. But it is proprietary; if that doesn't bother you, you can likely find the "bigger" versions to download.

I hope this gives you some avenues to explore ...

Frank
Piet van Oostrum-2 Piet van Oostrum-2
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Re: about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.

CVAlkan wrote:

 > I know for a fact that there are others on this list who are familiar with
 > and have accomplished what he is trying to do, so if we can get him squared
he -> she, him -> her
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CVAlkan CVAlkan
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Re: about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.

My abject and public apologies to Nasrin; while I am familiar with the Arabic script (although not the Farsi language), I made an apparently erroneous assumption as to her gender, as a number of folks (including far and away the most helpful of all posters to this list) pointed out privately, Nasrin is most certainly a female name. I forgot the old rule about assumptions still applies even when you don't realize you're making one.

No offense at all intended. I would hate to think of chasing away another potential voice in the effort to improve Writer's handling of non-western languages and scripts.

-Frank (แฟรงค์ โอเบอลี)
V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.

Frank,

I don't think Nasrin is going to be offended. She is active on NVDA ML and our LibreOffice Accessibility ML and our Bugzilla. Seems reasonably thick skinned...

I would note though that she is one of our remaining Windows XP users and that she is dependent on screen reader support and so has to struggle a bit with descriptions about using the GUI.  

So if we can couch our assistance for someone who can not easily read the screen and dialogs I'm sure she would appreciate that ;-)

Stuart
CVAlkan CVAlkan
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Re: about libreoffice fonts and persian and arabic diacritics.

Very interesting ...

Many folks have only reluctantly transitioned from Windows XP; I still have XP in a VirtualBox VM solely so I can use the original/final Shapeware version of Visio in which I have many LARGE drawings and diagrams) by adopting Ubuntu (or some variant) 14.04 or similar; Microsoft seemed to want to make it into something it wasn't and I didn't like their "improvements" at all.)

With that in mind, I fired up the Orca screen reader program in Ubuntu to get a sense of how it worked. Right off the bat I noticed that when I opened an English page, it seemed to work fine (I dislike the default voice, but never took the time to load an alternate as I used it only for one experiment). When I switched to a window with Thai text, though, it began reading me the Unicode values for each character - which I'm betting isn't all that useful (I'm assuming from her questions that she uses both Farsi and English). There is an interesting user interface issue I hadn't ever considered during my pre-retirement development days.

Assuming that she intends to move on from XP (or will be forced to do so eventually), and she needs someone to experiment with Linux (Ubuntu or Fedora right now - I assume she's doing her own experimenting with Windows), I would be happy to help, and she is welcome to contact me directly. I am familiar enough with a few languages that I can likely generalize any testing she needs.

She hasn't yet responded to my post, although it's probably tedious to listen to my ramblings, so if you could pass this info on to her, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,
Frank