annnnnd we are back to square one.

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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annnnnd we are back to square one.

 Hello

Björn
> As a personal remark to this thread:
> A complete redesign of the interface is not on the agendy of any
> LO-developer
> (as far as I know). So, please do not waste your or anybody elses time with
> creating big pictures. We will get to the point where this is constructive
> -
> but at the moment it is just the opposite of it. If anyone wants to do
> something really helpfull: try to find and document the small improvements
> that are possible to make LO rock even more.


if the devs do not have a redesign on the agenda, then we should making a
road map to get the devs to where they can start working on this. Mirek as
started on one here [1], some say that it is not completed. what do we need
to complete it, and what do we need to do to get the devs on the road. I
think this is the dev agenda page [2], if not can someone tell me where to
find it. if it is it does not make any sence. I looks like all they have is
bug fixes and improvements... im not sure to you but if thats all they plan
to do untill 2013 then I think that they can spend some time on the UI.
hell if we could only have one small team of devs just devoted
to changing the UI that would be good. then they could get some more people
helping integrating it into the hard code.

can we get someone from the deve team to help us work on this road map. I
know that some of them hang around here. I do not want to mess with what
has already been planed but we should start to plan to change the UI. till
then we the design team need to continue critiquing the Citrus UI, and
getting it ready to implement.

[1]
http://clickortap.wordpress.com/citrus/roadmap/
[2]
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan

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August Sodora August Sodora
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

If there were some specifications for the roadmap entries that the
design list likes, I would certainly try and implement it. For the
really near term, I remember somebody mentioning that a specification
was in progress for the macros dialog; has this progressed since then?
I would really like to improve that a bit (can't get it in before the
next feature freeze but maybe for the next one). Same goes for the
basic ide, at least that is the part of the code I know the most about
currently.

I'm sure there are more specific technical considerations that another
dev would be more equipped to address, especially if we are
considering anything major.

August Sodora
[hidden email]
(201) 280-8138



On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Andrew Pullins <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  Hello
>
> Björn
>> As a personal remark to this thread:
>> A complete redesign of the interface is not on the agendy of any
>> LO-developer
>> (as far as I know). So, please do not waste your or anybody elses time with
>> creating big pictures. We will get to the point where this is constructive
>> -
>> but at the moment it is just the opposite of it. If anyone wants to do
>> something really helpfull: try to find and document the small improvements
>> that are possible to make LO rock even more.
>
>
> if the devs do not have a redesign on the agenda, then we should making a
> road map to get the devs to where they can start working on this. Mirek as
> started on one here [1], some say that it is not completed. what do we need
> to complete it, and what do we need to do to get the devs on the road. I
> think this is the dev agenda page [2], if not can someone tell me where to
> find it. if it is it does not make any sence. I looks like all they have is
> bug fixes and improvements... im not sure to you but if thats all they plan
> to do untill 2013 then I think that they can spend some time on the UI.
> hell if we could only have one small team of devs just devoted
> to changing the UI that would be good. then they could get some more people
> helping integrating it into the hard code.
>
> can we get someone from the deve team to help us work on this road map. I
> know that some of them hang around here. I do not want to mess with what
> has already been planed but we should start to plan to change the UI. till
> then we the design team need to continue critiquing the Citrus UI, and
> getting it ready to implement.
>
> [1]
> http://clickortap.wordpress.com/citrus/roadmap/
> [2]
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan
>
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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

HI

If there were some specifications for the roadmap entries that the
> design list likes, I would certainly try and implement it. For the
> really near term, I remember somebody mentioning that a specification
> was in progress for the macros dialog; has this progressed since then?
> I would really like to improve that a bit (can't get it in before the
> next feature freeze but maybe for the next one). Same goes for the
> basic ide, at least that is the part of the code I know the most about
> currently.
>

I would start on some specifications but I still do not know what they are.
we have been talking about how we need to start writing them for some time.

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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

In reply to this post by August Sodora
Hi,

Le 27/11/11 04:29, August Sodora a écrit :
> If there were some specifications for the roadmap entries that the
> design list likes, I would certainly try and implement it. For the
> really near term, I remember somebody mentioning that a specification
> was in progress for the macros dialog; has this progressed since then?
> I would really like to improve that a bit (can't get it in before the
> next feature freeze but maybe for the next one). Same goes for the
> basic ide, at least that is the part of the code I know the most about
> currently.

On nov 13 I proposed to work on this subject, and on nov 17 I sent a
link on the wiki. But since, I had no answers ?

Have you seen my mails ? Maybe I have a mail problem...
So here is again the link to my very first proposal :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Macros_Dialogs
there is also an entrypoint from the whiteboards page :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards

I'll be happy to have some feedback and to continue to work on this subject.


Michel


PS : I had something similar on oct 07 : I sent ideas about the
community (in response to Christoph Noack), but it became the last post
of the thread. My ideas were mostly around "roadmap with devs".

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

In reply to this post by Andrew Pullins
Andrew,

To keep this simple and without shame of repeating myself:
The developers cannot implement a complete redesign all at once. Therefore
you need to push changes one by one. Little by little. In order to do this
you need to write specification for each of the UI feature. What has been
written so far here and on Mirek's blog needs to be much, much more
detailed.

That way we'll get something developers can use and understand.

Best,

Charles.
Le 27 nov. 2011 04:19, "Andrew Pullins" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>  Hello
>
> Björn
> > As a personal remark to this thread:
> > A complete redesign of the interface is not on the agendy of any
> > LO-developer
> > (as far as I know). So, please do not waste your or anybody elses time
> with
> > creating big pictures. We will get to the point where this is
> constructive
> > -
> > but at the moment it is just the opposite of it. If anyone wants to do
> > something really helpfull: try to find and document the small
> improvements
> > that are possible to make LO rock even more.
>
>
> if the devs do not have a redesign on the agenda, then we should making a
> road map to get the devs to where they can start working on this. Mirek as
> started on one here [1], some say that it is not completed. what do we need
> to complete it, and what do we need to do to get the devs on the road. I
> think this is the dev agenda page [2], if not can someone tell me where to
> find it. if it is it does not make any sence. I looks like all they have is
> bug fixes and improvements... im not sure to you but if thats all they plan
> to do untill 2013 then I think that they can spend some time on the UI.
> hell if we could only have one small team of devs just devoted
> to changing the UI that would be good. then they could get some more people
> helping integrating it into the hard code.
>
> can we get someone from the deve team to help us work on this road map. I
> know that some of them hang around here. I do not want to mess with what
> has already been planed but we should start to plan to change the UI. till
> then we the design team need to continue critiquing the Citrus UI, and
> getting it ready to implement.
>
> [1]
> http://clickortap.wordpress.com/citrus/roadmap/
> [2]
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan
>
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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

Le 27/11/11 18:22, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

> Andrew,
>
> To keep this simple and without shame of repeating myself:
> The developers cannot implement a complete redesign all at once. Therefore
> you need to push changes one by one. Little by little. In order to do this
> you need to write specification for each of the UI feature. What has been
> written so far here and on Mirek's blog needs to be much, much more
> detailed.
>
> That way we'll get something developers can use and understand.

To complement Charles answer, may I suggest to re-use the wiki pages
created by Christoph Noack to make proposals ?
You can see them in the whiteboard section :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard

And an important point : please create mockups in wireframe.
Otherwise, the theme/aesthetic changes may disturb the UX analysis. [1]

Thanks,

Michel



[1]
http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/05/picture-is-worth-thousand-words.html
for example, all ux proposals by Canonical are built with balsamiq :
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/383
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333

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Andrew Pullins Andrew Pullins
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

Michel

sorry I did not read that email thread, will take a look at it.

Charles

To keep this simple and without shame of repeating myself:
>> The developers cannot implement a complete redesign all at once. Therefore
>> you need to push changes one by one. Little by little. In order to do this
>> you need to write specification for each of the UI feature. What has been
>> written so far here and on Mirek's blog needs to be much, much more
>> detailed.
>>
>
Oh My God, I purposed that we make a ROAD MAP. A thing that is a STEP BY
STEP instruction on how to START implantation of a new UI. parden my
CAPTIZED words im am getting tired of people telling me that we can not do
this UI Stuff in on blow. I KNOW THAT.

what I was asking is, was that link [1], a LINK to the devs "Road Map". and
if it was, I said that it looks like all they have planed for the next year
is bug fixes, code freeze(which they do not say what code they will be
working on), and l10n improvements(which they do not explain what that
means.)

once we understand where the dev team is planing on heading, I perpose that
we stear them onto our road. and just to remind you that we can not do this
in one blow, just encase you forgot.

so until then I along with many others think that we should continue our
talks about Citrus, deside on some things, and start on making
some specifications. because who the knows there just mite be a dev that
finds our specification and says, hay I could do that it mite take me a
[this amount of time], ill start this now. we have a lot of devs, all
working on many different things. there is no reason that a group of them
could not step up and start working on some of this.  I had heard some time
ago that the devs want to get started on this project.



> To complement Charles answer, may I suggest to re-use the wiki pages
> created by Christoph Noack to make proposals ?
> You can see them in the whiteboard section :
> https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/Design/**Whiteboard<https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard>


thank you for showing me this. that was helpful.

And an important point : please create mockups in wireframe.
> Otherwise, the theme/aesthetic changes may disturb the UX analysis. [1]

[1] http://uxopenofficeorg.**blogspot.com/2010/05/picture-**
> is-worth-thousand-words.html<http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/05/picture-is-worth-thousand-words.html>


why wireframe, I know that a lot of UI are made in that but why?

>
> for example, all ux proposals by Canonical are built with balsamiq :
> http://www.markshuttleworth.**com/archives/383<http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/383>
> http://www.markshuttleworth.**com/archives/333<http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333>


[1]
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

Andrew

I don't think you understand what I am trying to say and I also think you
don't know how devs work here and in Free & Open Source projects in general.

If we have to implement UI features one by one you will work on them one by
one, therefore, a roadmap is not that useful as you will have other ideas
with time. Similarly the devs do not have a roadmap of bugs and features.
You may well get familiar with the development processes but do not hope to
convince developers te Citrus is a great idea. Feed them with specs easy to
code instead, you'll get things done much faster.

Best,

Charles.
Le 27 nov. 2011 20:23, "Andrew Pullins" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Michel
>
> sorry I did not read that email thread, will take a look at it.
>
> Charles
>
> To keep this simple and without shame of repeating myself:
> >> The developers cannot implement a complete redesign all at once.
> Therefore
> >> you need to push changes one by one. Little by little. In order to do
> this
> >> you need to write specification for each of the UI feature. What has
> been
> >> written so far here and on Mirek's blog needs to be much, much more
> >> detailed.
> >>
> >
> Oh My God, I purposed that we make a ROAD MAP. A thing that is a STEP BY
> STEP instruction on how to START implantation of a new UI. parden my
> CAPTIZED words im am getting tired of people telling me that we can not do
> this UI Stuff in on blow. I KNOW THAT.
>
> what I was asking is, was that link [1], a LINK to the devs "Road Map". and
> if it was, I said that it looks like all they have planed for the next year
> is bug fixes, code freeze(which they do not say what code they will be
> working on), and l10n improvements(which they do not explain what that
> means.)
>
> once we understand where the dev team is planing on heading, I perpose that
> we stear them onto our road. and just to remind you that we can not do this
> in one blow, just encase you forgot.
>
> so until then I along with many others think that we should continue our
> talks about Citrus, deside on some things, and start on making
> some specifications. because who the knows there just mite be a dev that
> finds our specification and says, hay I could do that it mite take me a
> [this amount of time], ill start this now. we have a lot of devs, all
> working on many different things. there is no reason that a group of them
> could not step up and start working on some of this.  I had heard some time
> ago that the devs want to get started on this project.
>
>
>
> > To complement Charles answer, may I suggest to re-use the wiki pages
> > created by Christoph Noack to make proposals ?
> > You can see them in the whiteboard section :
> > https://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/Design/**Whiteboard<
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard>
>
>
> thank you for showing me this. that was helpful.
>
> And an important point : please create mockups in wireframe.
> > Otherwise, the theme/aesthetic changes may disturb the UX analysis. [1]
>
> [1] http://uxopenofficeorg.**blogspot.com/2010/05/picture-**
> > is-worth-thousand-words.html<
> http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/05/picture-is-worth-thousand-words.html
> >
>
>
> why wireframe, I know that a lot of UI are made in that but why?
>
> >
> > for example, all ux proposals by Canonical are built with balsamiq :
> > http://www.markshuttleworth.**com/archives/383<
> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/383>
> > http://www.markshuttleworth.**com/archives/333<
> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333>
>
>
> [1]
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleasePlan
>
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>
>

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Stefan Knorr (Astron) Stefan Knorr (Astron)
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

In reply to this post by Andrew Pullins
Hi Andrew,

please remember to be polite. And if you want to work on a roadmap/a
spec, then start one!
There is absolutely no point in endlessly discussing this on the list
and frustrating everyone in the process. For a reasonably complete
spec, see e. g.
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Calc_Range_Names
.


Astron.

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

Hi all,

It seems we get more traffic on this list if (I have to) stay away for a while. To be serious - I only briefly looked at this thread and noticed two things.

First, there are some highly interesting thoughts by both UX guys and developers ... thats something I am very happy with. I'd like to have us working together to finally derive where we want to go to, and starting to do the first confident steps.

Second, I am not so happy that people repeat over and over again that nothing happens ... whilst there are numerous (other) requests for support being unanswered for a long time. Especially, since parts of (e.g.) the Citrus roadmap are at least started (sometimes stalled, but adressed).

We again have some friends visiting us, so I will be available again in a few days - maybe I can add some thoughts then. In the meantime, thanks (e.g.) Astron and Charles for the calm voices and the FLOSS explanations.

Cheers,
Christoph

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"Stefan Knorr (Astron)" <[hidden email]> schrieb:

Hi Andrew,

please remember to be polite. And if you want to work on a roadmap/a
spec, then start one!
There is absolutely no point in endlessly discussing this on the list
and frustrating everyone in the process. For a reasonably complete
spec, see e. g.
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboard/Calc_Range_Names
.


Astron.

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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

In reply to this post by Andrew Pullins
Le 27/11/11 20:22, Andrew Pullins a écrit :


>
> And an important point : please create mockups in wireframe.
>> Otherwise, the theme/aesthetic changes may disturb the UX analysis. [1]
>
> [1] http://uxopenofficeorg.**blogspot.com/2010/05/picture-**
>> is-worth-thousand-words.html<http://uxopenofficeorg.blogspot.com/2010/05/picture-is-worth-thousand-words.html>
>
>
> why wireframe, I know that a lot of UI are made in that but why?



Well...
the above blog says it clearly :
"
When looking at ideas, it doesn't work better if it just looks better.
Moreover, strange guys like the UX people do even try to avoid keeping
too much attention on visual design (in the first run). Mostly we use
something called "wireframes" to present our ideas. Why? Because
otherwise you might easily run into something called "taste war" :-)
"

To be as complete as possible, I would list my reasons :
- User eXperience and Visual Design are very different subjects
     User eXperience :
         - where are elements ?
         - what is their own behaviour ? (mostly imposed by OSes)
         - Are visual metaphor coherent with what's expected by user ?
         - what are the most executed actions ?
         - Which informations are necessary to perform those actions ?
         - How many click/keyboard events are necessary to perform those
actions ?
         - For each action, is it possible to reduce the number of
user's events ? (ex: reduce the nb of mouse click)
         - How can we change "simple actions" to "very easy actions" ?
         - How can we change "complex actions" to "simple actions" ?
         - Do all actions follow the same principles ?

     Visual design :
         - what is the rendering of every element in every state
possible (active/inactive/pressed/hover....) ?
         - (there must be other parts, but I should ask a visual designer !)

     A one-line version would be :
     User eXperience --> study the dynamics (evolution in time in
response to events)
     Visual Design --> study a photograph of several elements (how make
it look good / clear at the first microsecond)


- if UX designer work with rendered elements, they'll inconsciously be
infuenced by the rendering and focus on it instead of behaviour.
For example, in citrus proposal, what do people *really* like ?
the smart levels of gray and some subtle gradients or the behaviour ?

(and in a very personnal note : my eyes are hurted by dark background so
I really can not look at more than 3 seconds a mockup with a dark theme
and I'll miss good ideas !)

- a UX design in wireframe is naturally cross-platform ;-)

- working with wireframes (only rectangles, lines and few text) in Draw
or Inkscape is *much much* faster and upgradable than drawing with Gimp


Did I convinced you ?
;-)


Michel

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Michel RENON Michel RENON
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Re: annnnnd we are back to square one.

In reply to this post by Andrew Pullins
Le 27/11/11 04:18, Andrew Pullins a écrit :
>   Hello
> [...]
>
> can we get someone from the deve team to help us work on this road map. I
> know that some of them hang around here. I do not want to mess with what
> has already been planed but we should start to plan to change the UI. till
> then we the design team need to continue critiquing the Citrus UI, and
> getting it ready to implement.
>

This paragraph made me think of something I had in mind for weeks :
During last weeks, I read a lot of message similar to this one.
The inconscious idea is that Citrus UI *is* the future UI of
LibreOffice. I find this not positive because it may prevent other ideas
from appearing ; and we need ideas !

Please note that there is absolutely no offense against Citrus UI from
me. I would just like to keep the UX team in a brainstorming mode !

I would propose to use a neutral form : "future UI".

So let's make a lot of one-step proposals to reach one day the "future UI" !

Thanks

Michel

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