binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

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Jean-Baptiste Faure Jean-Baptiste Faure
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binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

Hi,

In order to make this change as smooth as possible, I think we should
give clear and complete information to the users:

- release a complete list of legacy formats which are dropped. Is there
something else than sd? formats (StarOffice 5 formats) ?

- perhaps it would be fair to add a warning message when the user try to
open a file that is in a dropped format

- what the user can do with its old files: I think it is not enough to
say "you have to convert them with an old version of LibreOffice". For
example, I have old sdw and sxw files in my laboratory diary and I do
not want to lose their modification date if I convert them in ODF. What
should I do and what advice I could give to an end-user who is in the
same position?

Best regards.
JBF

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Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents.

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Andras Timar Andras Timar
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

Hi Jean-Baptiste,

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> - release a complete list of legacy formats which are dropped. Is there
> something else than sd? formats (StarOffice 5 formats) ?

It affects only old binary formats of StarOffice 5 and earlier versions.

BTW shoudn't we remove traces of binfiler from filter/, too?
"cd filter && git grep BF_" gives a lot of hits.

> - what the user can do with its old files: I think it is not enough to
> say "you have to convert them with an old version of LibreOffice". For
> example, I have old sdw and sxw files in my laboratory diary and I do
> not want to lose their modification date if I convert them in ODF. What
> should I do and what advice I could give to an end-user who is in the
> same position?

sxw and other XML based formats are not affected.

I opened an old sdw file (rsc\doku\feinkonz.43\rsc.sdw from
LibreOrfice source) and it did not have modification date, In fact it
had no metadata at all. Are you sure that this format supports
metadata? Of do you mean the modification date at the file system
level? touch -r file.sdw file.odt

Best regards,
Andras
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Jean-Baptiste Faure Jean-Baptiste Faure
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

Hi Andras,

Le 10/11/2012 10:00, Andras Timar a écrit :
> Hi Jean-Baptiste,
>
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> - release a complete list of legacy formats which are dropped. Is there
>> something else than sd? formats (StarOffice 5 formats) ?
> It affects only old binary formats of StarOffice 5 and earlier versions.
Ok, that reduces the number of affected users ;-)
> BTW shoudn't we remove traces of binfiler from filter/, too?
> "cd filter && git grep BF_" gives a lot of hits.
Yes, that would make the things more clear.
>> - what the user can do with its old files: I think it is not enough to
>> say "you have to convert them with an old version of LibreOffice". For
>> example, I have old sdw and sxw files in my laboratory diary and I do
>> not want to lose their modification date if I convert them in ODF. What
>> should I do and what advice I could give to an end-user who is in the
>> same position?
> sxw and other XML based formats are not affected.
Indeed, the master is still able to open my sx? files.
> I opened an old sdw file (rsc\doku\feinkonz.43\rsc.sdw from
> LibreOrfice source) and it did not have modification date, In fact it
> had no metadata at all. Are you sure that this format supports
> metadata? Of do you mean the modification date at the file system
> level? touch -r file.sdw file.odt
Yes, I mean the modification date at the file system level. I know that
some images converters are able to convert photo from a format to
another without changing this date. So it is probably possible to do the
same for old documents.

My problem is to have all necessary informations to help end-users to
keep their old files/data in a readable format without losing important
informations. I think the modification date is one of them.

Best regards.
JBF

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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure
On 11/10/2012 08:17 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:

Hi Jean-Baptiste,


> - what the user can do with its old files: I think it is not enough to
> say "you have to convert them with an old version of LibreOffice". For
> example, I have old sdw and sxw files in my laboratory diary and I do
> not want to lose their modification date if I convert them in ODF. What
> should I do and what advice I could give to an end-user who is in the
> same position?
>

You make a good point, but if there are no mechanisms in place to
guarantee the date of creation of the file in the first place, then the
fact that the "last modified" date might get changed when converting to
ODT will not make the file creation date any less valid than the already
suspect "file creation" date. If your lab books/diary, which I'm
assuming are "electronic", do not have a certifiable means of
guaranteeing the date of creation of any added file then the whole point
is moot, since if you can change that date without impacting on file
integrity then you can do pretty much anything you like to your files
and their legal value as elements of proof of creation will be next to
worthless.



Alex


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Jean-Baptiste Faure Jean-Baptiste Faure
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

Hi Alexander,

Le 10/11/2012 10:44, Alex Thurgood a écrit :

> On 11/10/2012 08:17 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:
>
> Hi Jean-Baptiste,
>
>
>> - what the user can do with its old files: I think it is not enough to
>> say "you have to convert them with an old version of LibreOffice". For
>> example, I have old sdw and sxw files in my laboratory diary and I do
>> not want to lose their modification date if I convert them in ODF. What
>> should I do and what advice I could give to an end-user who is in the
>> same position?
>>
> You make a good point, but if there are no mechanisms in place to
> guarantee the date of creation of the file in the first place, then the
> fact that the "last modified" date might get changed when converting to
> ODT will not make the file creation date any less valid than the already
> suspect "file creation" date. If your lab books/diary, which I'm
> assuming are "electronic", do not have a certifiable means of
> guaranteeing the date of creation of any added file then the whole point
> is moot, since if you can change that date without impacting on file
> integrity then you can do pretty much anything you like to your files
> and their legal value as elements of proof of creation will be next to
> worthless.
You are right, of course, but this "electronic" diary does not have any
legal value (AFAIK). I want to keep unchanged the modification date
because that makes finding files easier and shows that the file has not
been written recently.

Best regards.
JBF

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Miklos Vajna-2 Miklos Vajna-2
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

Hi JBF,

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 05:33:30PM +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You are right, of course, but this "electronic" diary does not have any
> legal value (AFAIK). I want to keep unchanged the modification date
> because that makes finding files easier and shows that the file has not
> been written recently.

Then really just do what Andras already suggested: touch -r <origfile>
<convertedfile>, and you're done. :-)

Miklos
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Jean-Baptiste Faure Jean-Baptiste Faure
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

Le 10/11/2012 21:46, Miklos Vajna a écrit :
> Hi JBF,
>
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 05:33:30PM +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> You are right, of course, but this "electronic" diary does not have any
>> legal value (AFAIK). I want to keep unchanged the modification date
>> because that makes finding files easier and shows that the file has not
>> been written recently.
> Then really just do what Andras already suggested: touch -r <origfile>
> <convertedfile>, and you're done. :-)
Indeed, that will work for me and others who use Linux and perhaps MacOS.
I will convert my old files or, better, export them in PDF/A. Thanks a lot.

But what about for users using MS-Windows ? Is there something similar ?

Best regards.
JBF

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Michael Stahl-2 Michael Stahl-2
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure
On 10/11/12 10:33, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:

> Hi Andras,
>
> Le 10/11/2012 10:00, Andras Timar a écrit :
>> Hi Jean-Baptiste,
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:17 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> - release a complete list of legacy formats which are dropped. Is there
>>> something else than sd? formats (StarOffice 5 formats) ?
>> It affects only old binary formats of StarOffice 5 and earlier versions.

that is not quite true, binfilter supports a lot of formats but most of
them are really obscure and/or perverse... e.g. you can import 1-2-3 and
Excel spreadsheets in Writer, because apparently 15 years ago somebody
thought that would be a neat idea.

oh... it turns out that all non-StarOffice 1.0-5.0 filters have already
been removed earlier, e.g. the spreadsheet Writer filters with
6540cc8ee0d4d2396e6b731ad71a241e8344531d and
2398b9c207e73ac782011740e91f2ef1a0bfb695

... oh wait actually the obscure formats were handled by something
called W4W which wasn't actually open source but only available in
StarOffice ?

okay, in summary we are indeed removing only StarOffice 1.0-5.0 formats :)

to finish the cleanup i have just removed the binfilter .xcu file from
the filter configuration...

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Andras Timar Andras Timar
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

On 2012.11.11. 22:00, Michael Stahl wrote:
> to finish the cleanup i have just removed the binfilter .xcu file from
> the filter configuration...
>
There are still some traces of these old formats in the codebase. See
for example git grep "StarCalc 3.0".
However I do not understand all hits. Some look like unused code.

Best regards,
Andras

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Miklos Vajna-2 Miklos Vajna-2
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

In reply to this post by Jean-Baptiste Faure
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:59:42PM +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Indeed, that will work for me and others who use Linux and perhaps MacOS.
> I will convert my old files or, better, export them in PDF/A. Thanks a lot.
>
> But what about for users using MS-Windows ? Is there something similar ?

Have you tried searching for it yourself? :-)

E.g.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/51435/windows-version-of-the-unix-touch-command
has quite a few pointers.
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Re: binfilter removed in LO 4.0 : how to communicate on this change?

Hi Miklos,

Miklos Vajna-2 wrote
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:59:42PM +0100, Jean-Baptiste Faure <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Indeed, that will work for me and others who use Linux and perhaps MacOS.
> I will convert my old files or, better, export them in PDF/A. Thanks a lot.
>
> But what about for users using MS-Windows ? Is there something similar ?

Have you tried searching for it yourself? :-)
No, I should have but, as I do not use MS-Windows anymore since years, and I did not know how to start such kind of searching. :-(

Thank you very much, for this good starting point. :-)

Best regards.
JBF