can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

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doug-2 doug-2
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can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

I'd like to make LO Writer default to saving everything in .rtf format.  
The .odf is not readable by people with
Microsoft software, which is most of the world.  If so, how?  (Running
version 3.4.4)

Thanx--doug

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Onyeibo Oku-2 Onyeibo Oku-2
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

On 11/22/2011 08:16 AM, doug wrote:
> I'd like to make LO Writer default to saving everything in .rtf format.
> The .odf is not readable by people with
> Microsoft software, which is most of the world.  If so, how?  (Running
> version 3.4.4)
>
> Thanx--doug
>

You can save the document as .doc from within LO so that "most of the
world" can read it.  But if you must have .rtf registered for LO only
then use "Default Programs" in Windows to set .rtf for LO and remove
other associations.  In Linux, that will happen differently but I assume
you're running Windows

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Jack Jack
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by doug-2
doug wrote:
> I'd like to make LO Writer default to saving everything in .rtf format.  The
> .odf is not readable by people with
> Microsoft software, which is most of the world.  If so, how?  (Running
> version 3.4.4)

To change the default format when saving: "Tools" -> "Options..." ->
"Load/Save" -> "General".  Under the section "Default file format and
ODF settings" you can change the default file format for saving.
Under "Document type" click the drop-down and select "Text document".
Then under the "Always save as" drop-down, select the format you want.

I would suggest not using "Rich Text Format" (rtf), for various
reasons; it may be better to stick with the older "Microsoft Word
97/2000/XP/2003" (doc) format.  As far as I'm aware, "ODF Text
Document" (odt) is compatible with most word processors (including
Microsoft Office Word), but you are free to use the format you're
comfortable with.

Regards
Stephan

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doug-2 doug-2
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

On 11/22/2011 02:39 AM, Stephan Zietsman wrote:

> doug wrote:
>> I'd like to make LO Writer default to saving everything in .rtf format.  The
>> .odf is not readable by people with
>> Microsoft software, which is most of the world.  If so, how?  (Running
>> version 3.4.4)
> To change the default format when saving: "Tools" ->  "Options..." ->
> "Load/Save" ->  "General".  Under the section "Default file format and
> ODF settings" you can change the default file format for saving.
> Under "Document type" click the drop-down and select "Text document".
> Then under the "Always save as" drop-down, select the format you want.
>
> I would suggest not using "Rich Text Format" (rtf), for various
> reasons; it may be better to stick with the older "Microsoft Word
> 97/2000/XP/2003" (doc) format.  As far as I'm aware, "ODF Text
> Document" (odt) is compatible with most word processors (including
> Microsoft Office Word), but you are free to use the format you're
> comfortable with.
>
> Regards
> Stephan
>
Thanx to the responders.  I'm using Linux.  In Windows I usually use
WordPerfect.
AFAIK, Microsoft can read rtf.  Two people whom I recently sent odf to
said they
couldn't read it.  I'm told by people familiar with MS Word that not all
.doc files
are compatible, there having been a change somewhere along about 1998 or so.
(I don't use anything Microsoft when I can avoid it; I don't need the
viruses.)
If someone know that MS can _not_ read rtf, then please advise.

--doug

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Michael Adams-2 Michael Adams-2
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

[snip]

On Tuesday 22 November 2011 20:49, doug wrote:

> Thanx to the responders.  I'm using Linux.  In Windows I usually
> use WordPerfect.
> AFAIK, Microsoft can read rtf.  Two people whom I recently sent odf
> to said they
> couldn't read it.  I'm told by people familiar with MS Word that
> not all .doc files
> are compatible, there having been a change somewhere along about
> 1998 or so. (I don't use anything Microsoft when I can avoid it; I
> don't need the viruses.)
> If someone know that MS can _not_ read rtf, then please advise.

OO.o traditionally, and thus LO, do not handle RTF especially well
from memory (IIRC images are linked by default rather than embedded).

But it gets worse. The RTF standard is actually a Microsoft standard
which they update with each new version of Word. RTF's main advantage
is that it is text based, not binary. But even reading it as text you
get cryptic short codes that have precious little human meaning.

I agree with Stephan that the DOC format is the better all purpose
format at this time. WordPerfect should also handle this format. Do
not be discouraged by the fact that DOCX is "meant" to replace it.
Neither Microsoft Office 2007 or 2010 produce ISO standard DOCX.
Instead they produce the deprecated ECMA-376 1st edition that was
introduced to the ISO system before changes were made. This makes
current DOCX documents an orphan format with no standards future.

If your documents are meant for printing and not collaborating i would
export them as PDF's. Difference in available fonts on the host
computer means that you can get different numbers of words on a page
from one system to another

HTH

--
Michael

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Jack Jack
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by doug-2
doug wrote:
> AFAIK, Microsoft can read rtf.  Two people whom I recently sent odf to said
> they
> couldn't read it.  I'm told by people familiar with MS Word that not all
> .doc files
> are compatible, there having been a change somewhere along about 1998 or so.
> (I don't use anything Microsoft when I can avoid it; I don't need the
> viruses.)
> If someone know that MS can _not_ read rtf, then please advise.

I think MS Office should read (and write) rtf.  If you don't have
complex documents, then I don't think there will be a problem.  But
adding tables, footnotes/endnotes, headers/footers, pictures etc. may
be a little unstable (you might get severe layout changes).

As regards doc files not being "compatible", I'd take that with a
pinch of salt.  Certainly, not all doc files are the same, and there
are cases where they don't work properly.  However, as far as I know,
rtf is less standardised and thus usually a little worse off.

If you've made your choice of format (and used it for a while), please
provide feedback to us.  It may help someone in future.

Regards
Stephan

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Marcello Romani Marcello Romani
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by doug-2
Il 22/11/2011 08:16, doug ha scritto:
> I'd like to make LO Writer default to saving everything in .rtf format.
> The .odf is not readable by people with
> Microsoft software, which is most of the world. If so, how? (Running
> version 3.4.4)
>
> Thanx--doug
>

FWIW, my ideal setup is to use odf and save in .doc format only when
exporting document for someone which doesn't have nor doesn't want (or
can't) install OOo / LibO.
My understanding is that non-odf document formats should be seen as
import and export only filters. Using one of them as "core" format on
which to build one's document repository is asking for trouble in the
long run.

My 2 cents.

--
Marcello Romani

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by doug-2
doug-2 wrote
AFAIK, Microsoft can read rtf.  Two people whom I recently sent odf to
said they
couldn't read it.  I'm told by people familiar with MS Word that not all
.doc files
are compatible, there having been a change somewhere along about 1998 or so.
(I don't use anything Microsoft when I can avoid it; I don't need the
viruses.)
If someone know that MS can _not_ read rtf, then please advise.
MS Office can indeed read RTF but currently LibreOffice has several problems with RTF import and export. In any case as mentioned by other users RTF is modified by MS from version to version and therefore it is not guaranteed to look the same in other editors...
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-3-4-3-Writer-cannot-handle-RTF-document-tt3485447.html#a3487090
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=1639498&query=RTF

On the other hand the DOC format has other problems (namely it can carry infectious macros) and some companies avoid them as exchange format...

Bottomline: if your document doesn't need editing, send PDF, if formatting is important send DOC, if content and safety is more important send RTF.

I'm afraid there is no perfect answer or solution :)
Tom Tom
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

This post was updated on .
Hi :)
+1
to most of everything people have said previously.  

The best work-around is to give people the link to the download page for LibreOffice.  It is easily possible to install LibreOffice alongside MS Office.  The default settings set LO up like that.  At one of the last screens of the installer it offers to make LO the default program for opening the MS Office formats but the boxes are all unticked by default anyway :)

Doc is not perfect but it seems to be the best one (at the moment) for sharing and collaborating.  Just avoid writing or using macros if you can.  If the person receiving your documents doesn't need to edit them then Pdf is best.  Either way keeping an original in odt is smart.  In Europe apparently around 20% of people use LibreOffice or OpenOffice.  In Brazil it's much higher.  Hopefully it will increase elsewhere too as LO becomes more widely used.  

There are a lot of extra wrinkles in the complexities of all this.  MS Office 2007 and 2010 can both read odt but only the older versions.  Most programs can read/write the newer Odt format that LibreOffice defaults to but are also quite happy with the older versions.  So, as Stephan Zietsman says go to

Tools - Options - "+Load / Save" - General

In the middle in the section
"Default file format and ODF settings"  
see the first line is
"ODF format version" change the drop-down menu beside it from "1.2 Extended (reccommended)", scroll upwards 2 places to set it at "1.0 / 1.1".  Now even MS Office should be able to read/write new Odt files you send them.  So, this should be a good format to keep original documents in.  

Also at the bottom of the same section use the 2 drop-down menus to set the default format for "text documents" (not text-files (weirdly)) to "Microsoft Office (97/2000/Xp)" or to "Rich text format" but the proper MS Office one is better.  The MS Office one is 1 or 2 places further backwards up the list.  

When you save documents a pop-up may appear (you can disable it but it's probably best to keep it).  It tends to be a little confusing as to which option saves in the default you set and which saves in the normal Odf format that is native to LibreOffice (and most other programs).  

While most people still seem to use Doc a few try to urge for Rtf.  
Generally those few seem to think that Rtf is a safer format, one that is not proprietary and not dependant on Microsoft developing it.  Sadly Microsoft do own it and their own programs never quite implemented it properly so that different versions of Word, Wordpad etc all have differences in the way they display a document saved in that format.  This was bad enough when MS were developing the format but now they have stopped developing it at all.  So, any bugs and problems will remain and if any new security issues arise they will go unfixed too.  MS's newer DocX supposedly does everything that the Rtf was supposed to be able to do (but never quite got there).  Of course the newer DocX also doesn't quite achieve the compatibility that it promises either.  The 'advantage' with DocX is that it forces people into buying the latest versions of MS Office.  Also since this new 'Open' 'ISO standard' is implemented differently on each release of MS Office it forces people to buy the newest version (MS Office 2010) even tho they may already have the slightly older MS Office 2007 and the newer one is due out fairly 'soon' (within a year or so).  

According to a Microsoft.com link i found on Thursday/Friday there are also likely to be differences depending on which OS you run MS Office on.  So, apparently there are differences if running  MS Office 2010 on Win7 or Xp (or Vista).  

With Odt it doesn't matter which OS you are using.  Sadly there are sometimes differences when opening with different programs but LibreOffice devs and most of the rest of us consider it a bug worth fixing when/if it is found that LO doesn't implement some aspect of the standard properly.  OASIS have finally set the specification for the 1.2 but many programs had already been using that as the default for ages as it took so long to finally agree it.  MS Office stuck with the older 1.0/1.1 specification using the excuse/reason that it was the last known stable version.  Lets hope the future MS Office release uses the 1.2 instead.  

Regards from
Tom :)
doug-2 doug-2
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by Marcello Romani
On 11/22/2011 04:54 AM, Marcello Romani wrote:

> Il 22/11/2011 08:16, doug ha scritto:
>> I'd like to make LO Writer default to saving everything in .rtf format.
>> The .odf is not readable by people with
>> Microsoft software, which is most of the world. If so, how? (Running
>> version 3.4.4)
>>
>> Thanx--doug
>>
>
> FWIW, my ideal setup is to use odf and save in .doc format only when
> exporting document for someone which doesn't have nor doesn't want (or
> can't) install OOo / LibO.
> My understanding is that non-odf document formats should be seen as
> import and export only filters. Using one of them as "core" format on
> which to build one's document repository is asking for trouble in the
> long run.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
To save files in a format most people in the world can't read is just
plain stupid, in my opinion.

--doug

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doug-2 doug-2
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by Pedro
On 11/22/2011 05:34 AM, Pedro wrote:

> doug-2 wrote
>> AFAIK, Microsoft can read rtf.  Two people whom I recently sent odf to
>> said they
>> couldn't read it.  I'm told by people familiar with MS Word that not all
>> .doc files
>> are compatible, there having been a change somewhere along about 1998 or
>> so.
>> (I don't use anything Microsoft when I can avoid it; I don't need the
>> viruses.)
>> If someone know that MS can _not_ read rtf, then please advise.
>>
> MS Office can indeed read RTF but currently LibreOffice has several problems
> with RTF import and export. In any case as mentioned by other users RTF is
> modified by MS from version to version and therefore it is not guaranteed to
> look the same in other editors...
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LO-3-4-3-Writer-cannot-handle-RTF-document-tt3485447.html#a3487090
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=1639498&query=RTF
>
> On the other hand the DOC format has other problems (namely it can carry
> infectious macros) and some companies avoid them as exchange format...
>
> Bottomline: if your document doesn't need editing, send PDF, if formatting
> is important send DOC, if content and safety is more important send RTF.
>
> I'm afraid there is no perfect answer or solution :)
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/can-I-make-Libre-default-to-save-as-rtf-tp3527035p3527293.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
This is a reasonable and reasoned comment.  I'm only sending and
receiving simple text.
If I wanted to do anything serious, I would go to Windows and use
WordPerfect, which I
believe is the best word processor around.  I wish someone would take
the old Corel Linux
version and update it so it could be installed on a modern system.  In
the meantime, I
use Linux whenever I can, so as to avoid the malware problems of Windows.

--doug

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Jay Lozier Jay Lozier
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by Jack
On 11/22/2011 02:39 AM, Stephan Zietsman wrote:

> doug wrote:
>> I'd like to make LO Writer default to saving everything in .rtf format.  The
>> .odf is not readable by people with
>> Microsoft software, which is most of the world.  If so, how?  (Running
>> version 3.4.4)
> To change the default format when saving: "Tools" ->  "Options..." ->
> "Load/Save" ->  "General".  Under the section "Default file format and
> ODF settings" you can change the default file format for saving.
> Under "Document type" click the drop-down and select "Text document".
> Then under the "Always save as" drop-down, select the format you want.
>
> I would suggest not using "Rich Text Format" (rtf), for various
> reasons; it may be better to stick with the older "Microsoft Word
> 97/2000/XP/2003" (doc) format.  As far as I'm aware, "ODF Text
> Document" (odt) is compatible with most word processors (including
> Microsoft Office Word), but you are free to use the format you're
> comfortable with.
>
> Regards
> Stephan
>
I believe MSO supports ODF 1.1 formats not the current 1.2 formats used
in LO. LO can be set to save to the older ODF 1.0/1.1 formats by default.

--
Jay Lozier
[hidden email]


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Tom Tom
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

Hi :)

This thread was forwarded off-list for collaboration and then bounced back as this thread
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Fwd-Re-libreoffice-users-can-I-make-Libre-default-to-save-as-rtf-td3529896.html

Regards from
Tom :)
nabbler nabbler
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by doug-2
On 22/11/2011, doug <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd like to make LO Writer default to saving everything in .rtf format.
> The .odf is not readable by people with
> Microsoft software, which is most of the world.  If so, how?  (Running
> version 3.4.4)
>

There are two strategic decisions for you to consider. If you have no
interest/desire to promote the benefits of odf, open your wallet and
buy m$. Any problems you have with compatibility, legibility, bugs,
etc. then become a problem for you to solve by contacting m$. In other
words, do not waste LO programmers' time to resolve your desire to use
LO as a free m$o clone.

As is often asked to m$ fans: have you made a financial contribution
to LO programmers to help you to perpetuate m$ file formats, via LO???
Every time you ask such compatibility complaints, please open your
wallets! Those that want to continue the dominance of m$ should at
least pay for the privilege...

If you want to contribute towards reaching a future when "most of the
world" are at least _aware_ of odf, you should: (a) send documents in
pdf to view or odf to edit and tell your recipients about your use of
LO to produce your documents in pdf & odf; (b) send documents in odf11
and tell your recipients that such documents will be visible in m$o
but the quality will be poor, otherwise recommend use of LO to
view/edit document to high quality.

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Pedro Pedro
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

e-letter wrote
In other words, do not waste LO programmers' time to resolve your desire to use
LO as a free m$o clone.
e-letter you should state clearly in your email that this is your PERSONAL opinion.

You are not speaking in behalf of the programmers or of this project.

If it was a TDF decision to break with MS formats then they would NOT have added the option to save to those formats.

The people that run this project want users to join in (even if they don't use ODF), not to shut them out.

Are you going to tell companies or governments that move to LO that may must use ODF or don't use LO at all? Should they tell the companies or governments that they work with that they too must adopt ODF otherwise they will stop sending documents?
Marcello Romani Marcello Romani
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by doug-2
Il 22/11/2011 19:22, doug ha scritto:

> On 11/22/2011 04:54 AM, Marcello Romani wrote:
>> Il 22/11/2011 08:16, doug ha scritto:
>>> I'd like to make LO Writer default to saving everything in .rtf format.
>>> The .odf is not readable by people with
>>> Microsoft software, which is most of the world. If so, how? (Running
>>> version 3.4.4)
>>>
>>> Thanx--doug
>>>
>>
>> FWIW, my ideal setup is to use odf and save in .doc format only when
>> exporting document for someone which doesn't have nor doesn't want (or
>> can't) install OOo / LibO.
>> My understanding is that non-odf document formats should be seen as
>> import and export only filters. Using one of them as "core" format on
>> which to build one's document repository is asking for trouble in the
>> long run.
>>
>> My 2 cents.
>>
> To save files in a format most people in the world can't read is just
> plain stupid, in my opinion.
>
> --doug
>

What's plain stupid instead is using an office suite and insisting on
NOT using its native file format (which, by the way is an international
approved standard).

Besides, I think you misunderstood my comment: what I'm suggesting is to
use LibO/OOo default document format to work on documents, and use the
"other" formats when passing documents to other people who don't use
LibO/OOo.

Anyway we are all free to do our choices, of course. :-)

--
Marcello Romani

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nabbler nabbler
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by Pedro
On 23/11/2011, Pedro <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The people that run this project want users to join in (even if they don't
> use ODF), not to shut them out.
>

Perhaps you should confirm your authority to comment as a representative of LO.

> Are you going to tell companies or governments that move to LO that may must
> use ODF or don't use LO at all? Should they tell the companies or
> governments that they work with that they too must adopt ODF otherwise they
> will stop sending documents?
>

I have no authority to tell anybody anything, but if a
government/company contract offer states that submissions must be in
odf, you would be stupid to submit a music manuscript and expect to
win. Anyway, your argument is weak; if you want to watch a flash
video, you need a flash player.

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

In reply to this post by nabbler
I am a TDF Director and one of the official spokespersons.

e-letter wrote
> In other words, do not waste LO programmers' time to resolve your desire to use LO as a free m$o clone.

You are assuming something completely wrong here. In the future, please avoid such statements, and - even more important - please listen to people on this mailing list who seem to be better informed than you are.

TDF developers are working hard to improve the level of interoperability with many file formats, because we want LibreOffice to be both the best implementation of ODF (a format that we want to be the standard for electronic documents) and the most interoperable office suite.

Users are free to use LibreOffice to read and write RTF and DOC/XLS/PPT files (and even DOCX/XLSX/PPTX files), although they should understand that only ODF will provide the best level of document interoperability, as it is the native LibreOffice file format and it is also supported by the latest versions of MS Office for Windows.

Of course, users should also understand that proprietary formats like RTF and legacy MS Office formats have been developed in order to lock them in into using MS Office, and should avoid the formats not because they are intrinsically bad (although they often are) but because they intentionally reduce their freedom.

Although user habits could let many user think that MS Office legacy formats are the most practical for interoperability, they should not overlook the fact that by sticking to MS Office legacy format they perpetuate their lock in into Microsoft products.

TDF is actively promoting ODF, which is the format of choice for all actual and future versions of LibreOffice. ODF is not only open and standard, but is also easier to implement than other ISO standard formats. For instance, OOXML has been approved as ISO standard in 2008, but after almost four years is still implemented in the non standard "transitional" version even by Microsoft (the company behind the original format) because of the incredible complexity of the format (confirmed by the length of the documentation of over 7.200 pages, i.e. almost six times as many as the ODF documentation).

This incredible complexity is a new form of lock in, as it makes extremely difficult to reproduce the file format. LibreOffice, on the other way, represents the best third party implementation of OOXML.

> If you want to contribute towards reaching a future when "most of the world" are at least _aware_ of odf, you should:
> (a) send documents in pdf to view or odf to edit and tell your recipients about your use of LO to produce your documents
> in pdf & odf; > (b) send documents in odf and tell your recipients that such documents will be visible in m$o but the
> quality will be poor, otherwise recommend use of LO to view/edit document to high quality.

I think that LibreOffice advocates should promote ODF by suggesting them to install LibreOffice, in order to get all the benefits of a truly open and standard format as ODF, but should also respect the choice of people who are not willing to change their office suite. Of course, if these people are still using MS Office 2003, it is easy to explain that LibreOffice provides a very similar user experience while offering a large number of new features and security updates.

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Italo Vignoli
Director - The Document Foundation
italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

italovignoli wrote
I am a TDF Director and one of the official spokespersons.

Apologies for the formatting mess of the previous message, but Nabble seems to decide on its own how to manage quotes.

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Italo Vignoli
Director - The Document Foundation
Tom Tom
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Re: can I make Libre default to save as .rtf

Hi :)
As far as i can see the only list that disputes the idea of supporting MS formats is the Users List.  

The rest of the project does such good work at supporting MS formats that sometimes it ends up being closer to MS's specs than MS's products.  Of course that is one of the problems and the LO devs then try to make LO's support as quirky as MSO's to compensate.  So far supporting MS formats seems to be going quite well.  

Regards from
Tom :)
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