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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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changes for this mailing list

Hello everyone,

as part of our membership process, we also would like to give
@libreoffice.org e-mail forwarders to our approved members. Thanks to
the folks from Heinlein Support in Berlin, who offered to take care of
the mail forwarding and to program a web tool to enable users to
configure the forwarding!

In order to be able to use two different mail servers -- one for mailing
lists, and one for the mail forwarders -- we have to change the
addresses of a few mailing lists.

In a nutshell: All lists currently known as @libreoffice.org will in the
future be known as @global.libreoffice.org

In detail:

[hidden email] => [hidden email]

[hidden email] => [hidden email]

[hidden email] => [hidden email]

[hidden email] => [hidden email]

[hidden email] => [hidden email]

[hidden email] => [hidden email]

[hidden email] => [hidden email]

[hidden email] => [hidden email]

You do *not* have to un- or resubscribe from any lists, as the list of
all recipients will be automatically transferred to the new addresses.
The subject prefix, like [libreoffice-website], will also stay the
*same*. What *will* change is the address you have to send e-mails to,
and the headers like List-Post and List-ID. So, in case you filter your
e-mails based on the headers, you *do* need to act. This is most likely
the case if you use a local mail client like Thunderbird. Webmail
services like Google Mail usually do *not* make use of these headers.

The change will be effective during the day of

        Thursday, June 9th

I will send a follow-up e-mail when the addresses have changed.
Immediately after that, assume the old addresses will stop working. I
will try to set them as aliases for a few days, but I cannot guarantee
it will work out.

However, *no* e-mail will be lost -- in case there is no alias in place,
you will receive a bounce message and can re-send the mail again.

Sorry for these inconveniences, but they will help us in providing
e-mail forwarders for our members.

In case of questions, feel free to ask me directly, or on the website@
mailing list.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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RE: [libreoffice-documentation] changes for this mailing list

I don't expect this will change, but I find the reasoning that appears to be behind it rather interesting.

So, let me see if I understand this.  So that you and other TDF Members can now have libreoffice.org e-mail addresses (which will be forwarded to whatever actual e-mail services hold and deliver mail as each individual member arranges) like [hidden email], all the rest of us have to learn how to send mail to [hidden email] when we have struggled already to learn how to work with list [hidden email], [hidden email], etc.  

And this irreversible change may or may not be disruptive in unexpected ways, but you'll do your best because it is being done by throwing a switch on the universe and Mother Nature can be petulant about such things (not to mention the opportunity it affords for Puck, Kokopelli, and Loki to have a little fun with the foolish humans).  

So does this mean that the archives will also change their URLs and any linking we have done to existing list posts will be broken?  (I mention this as one place where the law of unintended consequences may step in.  Will all of the threads be broken too?)  Of course, there is already archive.libreoffice.org for those.  Do they stay that way?

Additional curiosities.  Is there some system that has global.libreoffice.org be preferable to lists.libreoffice.org ?   Or is this some limitation of how Heinlein Support is working their magic?  Maybe what you really want is honorifics, so you can be [hidden email] or [hidden email] and [hidden email] (you can go crazy with this, though I recommend against [hidden email] ) since you're going to have to redo your stationery and business cards anyhow?

Now, I do like affinity forwardings.  After all, I get to be [hidden email] (a forwarding) and also [hidden email] and even [hidden email] (set up as a forwarding too) and, once upon a time, [hidden email].   I may even have Facebook and Linked-in affinities, though I haven't bothered to check.   I am just looking at the system-engineering aspects of this mid-course correction and how it appears to disrupt the many for the benefit of a few.  Odd, that, considering what it is we are out to accomplish and promote and who we say we are?

Playfully,

 - Dennis

PS: I do happen to filter on what appears in the "To" of incoming mail.  But it is relatively easy to change those rules since I also use a white-list spam system and the new "To" and perhaps "from" e-mail addresses will go to spam until I do something about them.

-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Effenberger [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 01:25
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: [libreoffice-documentation] changes for this mailing list

Hello everyone,

as part of our membership process, we also would like to give @libreoffice.org e-mail forwarders to our approved members. Thanks to the folks from Heinlein Support in Berlin, who offered to take care of the mail forwarding and to program a web tool to enable users to configure the forwarding!

In order to be able to use two different mail servers -- one for mailing lists, and one for the mail forwarders -- we have to change the addresses of a few mailing lists.

In a nutshell: All lists currently known as @libreoffice.org will in the future be known as @global.libreoffice.org

[ ... ]

You do *not* have to un- or resubscribe from any lists, as the list of all recipients will be automatically transferred to the new addresses.
The subject prefix, like [libreoffice-website], will also stay the *same*. What *will* change is the address you have to send e-mails to, and the headers like List-Post and List-ID. So, in case you filter your e-mails based on the headers, you *do* need to act. This is most likely the case if you use a local mail client like Thunderbird. Webmail services like Google Mail usually do *not* make use of these headers.

The change will be effective during the day of

        Thursday, June 9th

I will send a follow-up e-mail when the addresses have changed.
Immediately after that, assume the old addresses will stop working. I will try to set them as aliases for a few days, but I cannot guarantee it will work out.

However, *no* e-mail will be lost -- in case there is no alias in place, you will receive a bounce message and can re-send the mail again.

Sorry for these inconveniences, but they will help us in providing e-mail forwarders for our members.

In case of questions, feel free to ask me directly, or on the website@ mailing list.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]> Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

--
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All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted


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Tom Tom
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RE: [libreoffice-documentation] changes for this mailing list

Hi :)

This has been discussed 'ad nauseum' on the website list and probably other
places although i think it was some time ago and 'shelved' as being too
low-priority at the time.  I haven't checked in with the website list for many
months but i would hazard a guess that they have been discussing this quite a
lot recently too.  


Some things had to be set-up fast with the best foresight available at the
time.  Since then much has changed and grown.  Hindsight is fantastic, if only
we could have it much much earlier!!  Any links that don't work may need a tiny
bit of editing but i suspect that the 'global' bit in the middle wont appear on
old threads.  


Part of the problem with Windows systems is that they religiously attempt to
stick with legacy systems that really need to be thrown out, for example the
registry.  As a result they have to put a lot of work into propping up systems
that are vulnerable and in constant danger of falling over.  Oddly, they also
help make Windows unable to run on older hardware because of the immense size of
all that legacy bloat.  By contrast Linux and OpenSource systems are not afraid
to throw something out when it becomes a burden and as a curious result there
are a lot of linux distros that run superbly fast on machines that haunt peoples
attics or contribute to landfill.  


It's better to make this change now than wait until the community and supporting
websites has doubled in size again.

Also Florian is not some supreme master.  He is another volunteer who has
bravely accepted the job of informing people about things decided by committees
that he may not even have attended personally.  A thankless task at best!

However, re-reading your post again i see that it is probably meant as a
humorous and actually very funny gentle-dig-in-the-ribs rather than the attack i
first thought it.  I guess i am just a 'bit tense' right now as it's the end of
a wearying but fun day at the office ;)
Good luck and regards from
Tom :)



________________________________
From: Dennis E. Hamilton <[hidden email]>
To: Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
[hidden email]
Sent: Wed, 25 May, 2011 18:44:46
Subject: [libreoffice-users] RE: [libreoffice-documentation] changes for this
mailing list

I don't expect this will change, but I find the reasoning that appears to be
behind it rather interesting.

So, let me see if I understand this.  So that you and other TDF Members can now
have libreoffice.org e-mail addresses (which will be forwarded to whatever
actual e-mail services hold and deliver mail as each individual member arranges)
like [hidden email], all the rest of us have to learn how to send mail
to [hidden email] when we have struggled already to
learn how to work with list [hidden email],
[hidden email], etc.  


And this irreversible change may or may not be disruptive in unexpected ways,
but you'll do your best because it is being done by throwing a switch on the
universe and Mother Nature can be petulant about such things (not to mention the
opportunity it affords for Puck, Kokopelli, and Loki to have a little fun with
the foolish humans).  


So does this mean that the archives will also change their URLs and any linking
we have done to existing list posts will be broken?  (I mention this as one
place where the law of unintended consequences may step in.  Will all of the
threads be broken too?)  Of course, there is already archive.libreoffice.org for
those.  Do they stay that way?

Additional curiosities.  Is there some system that has global.libreoffice.org be
preferable to lists.libreoffice.org ?   Or is this some limitation of how
Heinlein Support is working their magic?  Maybe what you really want is
honorifics, so you can be [hidden email] or
[hidden email] and [hidden email] (you can go
crazy with this, though I recommend against [hidden email]
) since you're going to have to redo your stationery and business cards anyhow?

Now, I do like affinity forwardings.  After all, I get to be
[hidden email] (a forwarding) and also [hidden email] and even
[hidden email] (set up as a forwarding too) and, once upon a time,
[hidden email].   I may even have Facebook and Linked-in affinities, though
I haven't bothered to check.   I am just looking at the system-engineering
aspects of this mid-course correction and how it appears to disrupt the many for
the benefit of a few.  Odd, that, considering what it is we are out to
accomplish and promote and who we say we are?

Playfully,

- Dennis

PS: I do happen to filter on what appears in the "To" of incoming mail.  But it
is relatively easy to change those rules since I also use a white-list spam
system and the new "To" and perhaps "from" e-mail addresses will go to spam
until I do something about them.

-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Effenberger [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 01:25
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
[hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email];
[hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: [libreoffice-documentation] changes for this mailing list

Hello everyone,

as part of our membership process, we also would like to give @libreoffice.org
e-mail forwarders to our approved members. Thanks to the folks from Heinlein
Support in Berlin, who offered to take care of the mail forwarding and to
program a web tool to enable users to configure the forwarding!

In order to be able to use two different mail servers -- one for mailing lists,
and one for the mail forwarders -- we have to change the addresses of a few
mailing lists.

In a nutshell: All lists currently known as @libreoffice.org will in the future
be known as @global.libreoffice.org

[ ... ]

You do *not* have to un- or resubscribe from any lists, as the list of all
recipients will be automatically transferred to the new addresses.

The subject prefix, like [libreoffice-website], will also stay the *same*. What
*will* change is the address you have to send e-mails to, and the headers like
List-Post and List-ID. So, in case you filter your e-mails based on the headers,
you *do* need to act. This is most likely the case if you use a local mail
client like Thunderbird. Webmail services like Google Mail usually do *not* make
use of these headers.

The change will be effective during the day of

    Thursday, June 9th

I will send a follow-up e-mail when the addresses have changed.
Immediately after that, assume the old addresses will stop working. I will try
to set them as aliases for a few days, but I cannot guarantee it will work out.

However, *no* e-mail will be lost -- in case there is no alias in place, you
will receive a bounce message and can re-send the mail again.

Sorry for these inconveniences, but they will help us in providing e-mail
forwarders for our members.

In case of questions, feel free to ask me directly, or on the website@ mailing
list.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]> Steering Committee and
Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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RE: [libreoffice-documentation] changes for this mailing list

Hello,

Tom Davies wrote on 2011-05-25 20.25:
> This has been discussed 'ad nauseum' on the website list and probably
> other places although i think it was some time ago and 'shelved' as
> being too low-priority at the time.  I haven't checked in with the
> website list for many months but i would hazard a guess that they have
> been discussing this quite a lot recently too.

there has been a public discussion about that mail addresses on the
steering discuss list, as well as during the calls. After we received
lots of inquiries from the Community -- so it is *not* about addresses
for the founders or the steering committee -- we agreed on handing out
these forwarders for members of TDF.

It is a slight change for those writing to the lists, but we're trying
to make the process as easy as possible.

lists.libreoffice.org is not possible for technical reasons, as some
internal lists and archives are hosted at this address.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Dennis E. Hamilton Dennis E. Hamilton
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RE: changes for this mailing list

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
And who is this capital-C "Community" of which you speak?  (I was teasing about  founders.libreoffice.org, but not members.libreoffice.org.)  What was done to engage all effected parties?

" It is a slight change for those writing to the lists, but we're trying to make the process as easy as possible."

But why is the change not made a slight change, if any, for those who are the beneficiaries of the change, rather than those who are not?

As I said, I don't expect this change to be altered, but I think some introspection about the values it reflects would be useful.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Effenberger [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 05:07
To: Tom Davies
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] RE: [libreoffice-documentation] changes for this mailing list

Hello,

Tom Davies wrote on 2011-05-25 20.25:
> This has been discussed 'ad nauseum' on the website list and probably
> other places although i think it was some time ago and 'shelved' as
> being too low-priority at the time.  I haven't checked in with the
> website list for many months but i would hazard a guess that they have
> been discussing this quite a lot recently too.

there has been a public discussion about that mail addresses on the steering discuss list, as well as during the calls. After we received lots of inquiries from the Community -- so it is *not* about addresses for the founders or the steering committee -- we agreed on handing out these forwarders for members of TDF.

It is a slight change for those writing to the lists, but we're trying to make the process as easy as possible.

lists.libreoffice.org is not possible for technical reasons, as some internal lists and archives are hosted at this address.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]> Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: changes for this mailing list

Hello Dennis,

Dennis E. Hamilton wrote on 2011-05-26 18.20:
> And who is this capital-C "Community" of which you speak?  (I was teasing about  founders.libreoffice.org, but not members.libreoffice.org.)  What was done to engage all effected parties?

the Community is all of us, the people engaging on the lists,
contributing. We received many requests like "can I have a
@libreoffic.org address like it was at OpenOffice.org", and during one
of the public calls, the steering committee agreed in doing so, help
people identify with the project. The limitation to members -- anyone
active can apply as a member -- is solely because of bad experiences we
had at OpenOffice.org, where people simply could register an
@openoffice.org address and pretend they speak on behalf of the project.
We ran into problems indeed with that.

We discussed on the public lists and in the public calls -- it cannot be
more public and transparent, anyone had a chance to join. In fact, the
discussion has been running since February or even earlier, so there was
plenty of time.

> But why is the change not made a slight change, if any, for those who are the beneficiaries of the change, rather than those who are not?

Because it is technically not possible. We want to issue
@libreoffice.org addresses, and by doing so, we cannot have mailing
lists on the same addresses. I also proposed to instead use
@libreoffice.net for the mail forwarders, but nobody agreed to that.
This, again, on the public list where anyone could discuss.

And, honestly, it's no bigger change than if one contact of yours has a
new e-mail address. You change it in the address book, and that's it.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: changes for this mailing list

On 05/26/2011 12:25 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:

> Hello Dennis,
>
> Dennis E. Hamilton wrote on 2011-05-26 18.20:
>> And who is this capital-C "Community" of which you speak?  (I was
>> teasing about  founders.libreoffice.org, but not
>> members.libreoffice.org.)  What was done to engage all effected parties?
>
> the Community is all of us, the people engaging on the lists,
> contributing. We received many requests like "can I have a
> @libreoffic.org address like it was at OpenOffice.org", and during one
> of the public calls, the steering committee agreed in doing so, help
> people identify with the project. The limitation to members -- anyone
> active can apply as a member -- is solely because of bad experiences
> we had at OpenOffice.org, where people simply could register an
> @openoffice.org address and pretend they speak on behalf of the
> project. We ran into problems indeed with that.
>
> We discussed on the public lists and in the public calls -- it cannot
> be more public and transparent, anyone had a chance to join. In fact,
> the discussion has been running since February or even earlier, so
> there was plenty of time.
>
>> But why is the change not made a slight change, if any, for those who
>> are the beneficiaries of the change, rather than those who are not?
>
> Because it is technically not possible. We want to issue
> @libreoffice.org addresses, and by doing so, we cannot have mailing
> lists on the same addresses. I also proposed to instead use
> @libreoffice.net for the mail forwarders, but nobody agreed to that.
> This, again, on the public list where anyone could discuss.
>
> And, honestly, it's no bigger change than if one contact of yours has
> a new e-mail address. You change it in the address book, and that's it.
>
> Florian
>

For me, the idea of
     @global.libreoffice.org       --> world
     @us.libreoffice.org             --> USA
     @canada.libreoffice.org      --> Canada
can be useful in the lists and other regional work.

so
[hidden email] would be the general marketing that is
not keyed to one specific region.

[hidden email] would be for the US region list, but it
also includes Canadian interest as well - hopefully.

[hidden email] could be for a French language
marketing list - I do not know if this a list or not.

[hidden email] for the country

[hidden email]

[hidden email]

etc., etc., etc.

This is a good thing to have, thought you have to produce a lot of
sub-domain work to get it all working correctly.
Then you will have to have people assigning sub-domain names to the
groups that need those names, so a Brazilian group does not get all of
South America, and a different group does not take over the sub-domain
that the Brazilian group needs.

The NA community project included member from the US and Canada, but we
hope to get some Mexican involvement.
So we could have the @north-america.libreoffice.org sub-domain, or some
other one that states we are represent the North American region of the
country.

Now who gets to have an email address off from the domain or sub-domain,
I am not qualified to decide.  For me, if they are not part of the
steering committee or any other governing group, I do not think they
should have one of the @libreoffice.org email addresses, or maybe even
@sometext.libreoffice.org.  But I am not a part of any governing group
or committee for LibreOffice, so I do not have a say in this. There
should be clear-cut rules on assigning email addresses, and hopefully
there are some already in place.

I "bought" libreoffice-na.us as a domain to be a place for a DVD testing
portal, and I could make as many email addresses as I want, or my host
provider will allow.  But I do not tell people I am the "voice of"
LibreOffice, but I am part of the North American Community DVD Project
that is promoting LibreOffice within our community.  If you have email
addresses off from the same domain as LibreOffice is located, like
@libreoffice.org or documentfoundation.org, then you may have people
thing these people represent the LibreOffice and will take their words
as "fact".  That is the problem with giving email addresses to
"employees" using the company's domain name.  There could always be
people who should not have them.



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Tanstaafl Tanstaafl
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Re: changes for this mailing list

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
On 2011-05-26 12:25 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:
> the Community is all of us, the people engaging on the lists,
> contributing. We received many requests like "can I have a
> @libreoffic.org address like it was at OpenOffice.org", and during one
> of the public calls, the steering committee agreed in doing so, help
> people identify with the project. The limitation to members -- anyone
> active can apply as a member -- is solely because of bad experiences we
> had at OpenOffice.org, where people simply could register an
> @openoffice.org address and pretend they speak on behalf of the project.
> We ran into problems indeed with that.

As has been stated, it would have been MUCH better to have simply made
these addresses be something like [hidden email], rather
than disturbing the existing community...

This would have also made it clear that these people were simply
*members*, not actual *reps* of TDF or LibreOffice...

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Tom Tom
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Re: changes for this mailing list

Upside-down.  Membership of TDF is governed by a set of agreed rules and can be
revoked.  OOo didn't have that.  With OOo the membership and the Community were
seriously under-valued as a low-level add-on to the company that owned the
product, ie cheap labour to do the grunt work.  Some Sun employees may have
appreciated certain members of the community at certain times.  


With TDF the membership 'is' (will be?) the 'company' that owns the product.  
The founders are the core of that.  Members are representative of at least a
small part of the organisation that owns the product (ie representing
themselves) so bad-behaviour back-fires on them.  It's a completely different
bottle of crisps from the Sun and Oracle set-up.

Regards from
Tom :)




________________________________
From: Tanstaafl <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thu, 26 May, 2011 20:36:01
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: changes for this mailing list

On 2011-05-26 12:25 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote:
> the Community is all of us, the people engaging on the lists,
> contributing. We received many requests like "can I have a
> @libreoffic.org address like it was at OpenOffice.org", and during one
> of the public calls, the steering committee agreed in doing so, help
> people identify with the project. The limitation to members -- anyone
> active can apply as a member -- is solely because of bad experiences we
> had at OpenOffice.org, where people simply could register an
> @openoffice.org address and pretend they speak on behalf of the project.
> We ran into problems indeed with that.

As has been stated, it would have been MUCH better to have simply made
these addresses be something like [hidden email], rather
than disturbing the existing community...

This would have also made it clear that these people were simply
*members*, not actual *reps* of TDF or LibreOffice...

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timi timi
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Trivia Question

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Sorry to interrupt your admin wars.... Any chance that someone in the COMMUNITY (With or
without the capital "c") can solve why Impress loses all it's links (paths) to MP3 audio files
using "interact play sound"..... (in XP Pro environment as I can't stand the GUI for dummies
of WIN7).

May be trivial to you but put it this way.... us nasty MS Office Users (probably not paying
licence fees ref your forums comments) are having to revert to MS Office 2003 to get a
Powerpoint without the anal GUI of the current versions. BTW it doesn't lose links either.

I'm not sure what's worse the MS GUI or the fact that Libo boffins have no desire to improve
their product.

Quite obviously I can't use Impress for serious business so I guess my question is purely
academic?

Un-Impressed



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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Trivia Question

Le 27/05/11 19:27, [hidden email] a écrit :

Hi,

> Quite obviously I can't use Impress for serious business so I guess my question is purely
> academic?

Good job you didn't post on the dev list then, you would've been told,
that as a serious business user, you would naturally consider buying a
serious support contract !!

Enterprise use case scenarios are considered by more than one developer
to be marginal use cases, unless you as a business user are prepared to
sponsor developer time or prioritising to get your pet bug/feature fixed.


>
> Un-Impressed
>

Unperturbed. And yes I am a business user. Do I think it sucks - yes,
but then I did with MSO too.

Alex


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Tom Tom
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Re: Trivia Question

Hi :)
Are there Support Contracts available for LibreOffice already?  Any chance of a
link?  I saw one of the tri-folds mentioned about support from Novell but i
thought Novel got bought-out a few months ago.  Are they still around and if so
do they offer paid-for support?
Regards from
Tom :)



________________________________
From: Alexander Thurgood <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Fri, 27 May, 2011 22:06:40
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Trivia Question

Le 27/05/11 19:27, [hidden email] a écrit :

Hi,

> Quite obviously I can't use Impress for serious business so I guess my question
>is purely
>
> academic?

Good job you didn't post on the dev list then, you would've been told,
that as a serious business user, you would naturally consider buying a
serious support contract !!

Enterprise use case scenarios are considered by more than one developer
to be marginal use cases, unless you as a business user are prepared to
sponsor developer time or prioritising to get your pet bug/feature fixed.


>
> Un-Impressed
>

Unperturbed. And yes I am a business user. Do I think it sucks - yes,
but then I did with MSO too.

Alex


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timi timi
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Re: Trivia Question - Further Observation

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
Thanks Alex.... Appreciate your thoughts..

Does that mean I have to buy special support to correct bugs in a "released" version of LibO?

If then you might as well cut the hype about open system and charge licence fee's like MS....
at least then we might get an Impress that basically works.

Plse note that I was using a published feature of Impress not some weird functionality that I
would expect to pay for to resolve/develop.

It sucks.

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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Trivia Question

In reply to this post by Tom
On 05/27/2011 09:49 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
> Hi :)
> Are there Support Contracts available for LibreOffice already?  Any chance of a
> link?  I saw one of the tri-folds mentioned about support from Novell but i
> thought Novel got bought-out a few months ago.  Are they still around and if so
> do they offer paid-for support?
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
They are still around, as far as I can tell.

I say late last month a link, and followed it to Novel and its support
options.

Also, for legal stuff, if a company gets bought out the current owner
must abide by the contracts made with the company they bought out.  So
any support contract must be kept going.  Otherwise if a company wanted
to break a contract, they would just be able to be bought out by a
holding company and then break the contracts.  This would become a big mess.

I have heard of several companies offering paid support services, but do
not remember their names since I cannot afford to pay for support on my
limited budget.  A $150 printer is a large ticket item for me, so
spending another $50 a month for support is not my idea of needed use of
my limited income.  For companies, that is another story.

> ________________________________
> From: Alexander Thurgood<[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Fri, 27 May, 2011 22:06:40
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Trivia Question
>
> Le 27/05/11 19:27, [hidden email] a écrit :
>
> Hi,
>
>> Quite obviously I can't use Impress for serious business so I guess my question
>> is purely
>>
>> academic?
> Good job you didn't post on the dev list then, you would've been told,
> that as a serious business user, you would naturally consider buying a
> serious support contract !!
>
> Enterprise use case scenarios are considered by more than one developer
> to be marginal use cases, unless you as a business user are prepared to
> sponsor developer time or prioritising to get your pet bug/feature fixed.
>
>
>> Un-Impressed
>>
> Unperturbed. And yes I am a business user. Do I think it sucks - yes,
> but then I did with MSO too.
>
> Alex
>
>


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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Trivia Question - Further Observation

In reply to this post by timi
On 05/28/2011 03:57 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Thanks Alex.... Appreciate your thoughts..
>
> Does that mean I have to buy special support to correct bugs in a "released" version of LibO?
>
No we just report them and our developers work on the corrections.  
Hopefully those fixes are made in time for the next release of LibreOffice.

The support idea may be like having a person walking you though usage
and features of LibreOffice or help you install it on a new computer.  
This is the type of support a company's internal tech people do.  They
do not work on fixing bugs in MS Office, do they?

Actually LO version 3.4 is coming out soon.  This packages has fixed a
number of issues that users have reported.  Do not ask me what they are,
since I do not have the memory for such things.

EVERY release of LibreOffice is free.  Reporting bugs is free.  Getting
support here is free.
> If then you might as well cut the hype about open system and charge licence fee's like MS....
> at least then we might get an Impress that basically works.
> Plse note that I was using a published feature of Impress not some weird functionality that I
> would expect to pay for to resolve/develop.
>
> It sucks.
>
Well, with a detailed report on what it is not doing correctly, there
may either be a "fix" made for the next release, or one could be started.

I remember that I use to have to use an extension for MSO to make
PowerPoint be stand alone on a CD for use with a system that does not
have PP.

What do you mean by the "publish feature"?  Make it a PDF document or
print it in a finished way?  Publish it for a web based use online?  
There are so many ideas of "publishing" I do not know what you mean.  
Sorry, but that is a fact for me and maybe others.

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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: Trivia Question - Further Observation

In reply to this post by timi
Le 28/05/11 09:57, [hidden email] a écrit :

Hi,

> Thanks Alex.... Appreciate your thoughts..
>
> Does that mean I have to buy special support to correct bugs in a "released" version of LibO?
>
> If then you might as well cut the hype about open system and charge licence fee's like MS....
> at least then we might get an Impress that basically works.

Not as such, because some bugs will be fixed eventually whatever
happens, but :

- if you want "enterprise stability" in LibreOffice, the advice I have
been given and told to disseminate is to take out a support contract
with one of the more general enterprise support providers (Novell, Suse,
RedHat, Ubuntu ?, others ?) which are specifically offering LibreOffice
support ;

- taking out a support contract will help those companies, who currently
contribute code to the development of LibreOffice, to prioritise bug
fixing and feature development

- it makes no difference if the bug you have discovered was part of a
functionality already included in Impress or some weird behaviour that
you might have discovered from one version to the next - development and
releases will continue irrespective of such consideration ;

- even functionality that used to work in previous OOo versions, and no
longer works in LibO, will not necessarily receive priority treatment -
the major stopppers are bugs that cause crashes, and only then if they
are multiplatform, mulit-OS (with a slight preference for Linux and
Windows) and are perceived by the core developers as affecting many users.


I doubt that you will find any of the above written down _clearly_ in
any of the Foundation's, or LibreOffice.org's website pages, although
much of it is present in the various discussion lists (developer,
foundation, marketing). It is one of my major gripes with the project as
it currently stands that there is a lot of "hype" and very little down
to earth "in your face" explanation of a consensus of where the project
should be going. Perhaps that is just down to my personality of
requiring things to be as clear as possible up front so that at least I
can weigh up whether it is potentially worth investing more in the
project than I currently do (and I am already fairly heavily involved).

An example : can anyone point me to a webpage from the Foundation or the
LibreOffice.org site where it clearly states that LibreOffice is not
intended for business use or that if you are a business you should buy
support ?


FWIW, if you trawl around the net a bit, you can find enterprise support
vendors for LibreOffice :

http://www.credativ.co.uk/services/support/projects/office/libreoffice/
at 200 GBP / month
whether such a contract will actually get your bug problem fixed is
another matter...


http://www.lanedo.com/libreoffice.html
No publicly accessible pricing that I could see. They also offer to
actually fix bugs.


HTH,

Alex













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Pedro Pedro
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Re: Trivia Question - Further Observation

Excellent post, Alexander.

I agree that it is essential to have written rules of what to expect and what not to expect from a project.

I totally disagree with LO's philosophy of "Even if we broke something we might not fix it" but it is better to know that than for users to complain and demand pointlessly.

And the advice for people to get support from LO supporting companies is also an excellent point.

I think TDF should use your post to make things clear to everybody instead of leaving it all in the "grey area"

Kudos!
Tom Tom
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Re: Trivia Question - Further Observation

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
Hi :)
Hopefully some of those issues will be discussed and agreed, perhaps even voted
on as the official membership  grows.  Hopefully issues will be up for further
discussions again when the membership is much larger again.  


Support Contracts need to be available for very much less and hopefully will
be.  A £200 GBP / month is reaching the realms of paying an in-house dev.  Maybe
only about 6hours/month (including over-heads) but way beyond the reach of most
users.  


Regards from
Tom :)




________________________________
From: Alexander Thurgood <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sun, 29 May, 2011 8:58:24
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Trivia Question - Further Observation

Le 28/05/11 09:57, [hidden email] a écrit :

Hi,

> Thanks Alex.... Appreciate your thoughts..
>
> Does that mean I have to buy special support to correct bugs in a "released"
>version of LibO?
>
> If then you might as well cut the hype about open system and charge licence
>fee's like MS....
>
> at least then we might get an Impress that basically works.

Not as such, because some bugs will be fixed eventually whatever
happens, but :

- if you want "enterprise stability" in LibreOffice, the advice I have
been given and told to disseminate is to take out a support contract
with one of the more general enterprise support providers (Novell, Suse,
RedHat, Ubuntu ?, others ?) which are specifically offering LibreOffice
support ;

- taking out a support contract will help those companies, who currently
contribute code to the development of LibreOffice, to prioritise bug
fixing and feature development

- it makes no difference if the bug you have discovered was part of a
functionality already included in Impress or some weird behaviour that
you might have discovered from one version to the next - development and
releases will continue irrespective of such consideration ;

- even functionality that used to work in previous OOo versions, and no
longer works in LibO, will not necessarily receive priority treatment -
the major stopppers are bugs that cause crashes, and only then if they
are multiplatform, mulit-OS (with a slight preference for Linux and
Windows) and are perceived by the core developers as affecting many users.


I doubt that you will find any of the above written down _clearly_ in
any of the Foundation's, or LibreOffice.org's website pages, although
much of it is present in the various discussion lists (developer,
foundation, marketing). It is one of my major gripes with the project as
it currently stands that there is a lot of "hype" and very little down
to earth "in your face" explanation of a consensus of where the project
should be going. Perhaps that is just down to my personality of
requiring things to be as clear as possible up front so that at least I
can weigh up whether it is potentially worth investing more in the
project than I currently do (and I am already fairly heavily involved).

An example : can anyone point me to a webpage from the Foundation or the
LibreOffice.org site where it clearly states that LibreOffice is not
intended for business use or that if you are a business you should buy
support ?


FWIW, if you trawl around the net a bit, you can find enterprise support
vendors for LibreOffice :

http://www.credativ.co.uk/services/support/projects/office/libreoffice/
at 200 GBP / month
whether such a contract will actually get your bug problem fixed is
another matter...


http://www.lanedo.com/libreoffice.html
No publicly accessible pricing that I could see. They also offer to
actually fix bugs.


HTH,

Alex













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timi timi
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Re: Impress Health Warning!

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
Hi Alex,

Re: Trivia

Much appreciate your open and transparent view. I like down to earth discussion. My (sad)
conclusion is that I have to back off LibO Impress and cannot seriously consider changing
from the shackles of MS. I also think maybe us Impress guinea-pig users are in the minority
and it's only Write & Calc that get the majority of attention.

I do not believe it's unreasonable to request accurate information of product issues and
scheduled fixes.

I think Libo should carry a health warning! Basically stating that you can use LibO at your own
peril and that business users do so entirely at their own risk. In particular LibO Office suite of
programs are not interchangeable with their MS counterpart and their functionality is not
guaranteed.

[rant mode on]

My specific point here is the function in Impress "Interaction - Play Sound"..... on the surface
this looks very similar to MS PP "play-sound" equivalent BUT (a) is completely different (b)
utterly fails if you attempt to convert Impress to Powerpoint and (b) Frequently loses all paths
(links) between icons on screen and associated audio files. (Any potential Impress users
beware!)

[rant mode off]

Had I seen such information prior to attempting to seriously use Impress I could have saved
myself much wasted time and effort. Not to mention the piss-poor quality of  Impress "Help"
documentation.

I also think LibO for Linux and LibO for MS is a world apart.... Linux users are by nature are
more technically capable than your average MS Windows user (of which I am one - shouts of
speak for yourself...).... So if LibO is to ever meet the needs of the "mass market" of which
MS Office is the dominant platform you gotta give us lesser mortals a stable and well
documented product.

"Fatal Blue Screens" and years of MS abuse have taught us MS Office Users how to
seriously bitch. When MS wrecked the old interface to MS -Office by introducing their anal
GUI that's when I turned to Impress out of desperation, (not because it was free),  and hoped
for some normality as I loved its User interface and much of it's functionality.

However as MS Users our hands are tied! If we use "alternative" programs they have to have
interchange compatibility or our business communication is threatened.

I'm now licking my wounds ("open sores" ?) and have reverted to PP 2003 to retain my
sanity.... what else can I do?

Impress - This Product can be hazardous to your health!








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timi timi
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Re: Trivia Question - Paying for Support

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
Hi Alex,

I was just reflecting on the concept of having to pay for support to resolve my Impress
problem.... Such a venture could cost major bucks if it is a serious code issue.... indeed it
might not be fixable without the actual developers.

OK, Lets say I spend big money to get it fixed.... what happens to the solution which I've paid
for?

Do I get shares in LibO for providing funding?

If the bug was in an Application which I owned then it makes sense to invest but for a User to
invest money into a pit with no bottom it makes no commercial sense. My FD would have a
fit... he pays for MS licences but would never pay MS for Operating System support! His view
being if it's sold world wide as an operating system then it should "fit for purpose".

The above not being applicable to private Applications we may chose to develop.

Imagine paying MS to resolve the "Fatal Blue Screen"............... What?

Kind regards

"Un-Impressed"





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