http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

I am just re-reading my to-do list of LibreOffice in Academia and one of
the oldest feature request is this one. I believe 8 years in request. Do
you think that this feature request will ever have a chance at being
accepted?

I am in the process of creating a wiki page of LibreOffice in academia.[1]

Cheers

Marc

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/LibreOffice_In_Academia

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Jean-Baptiste_Faure Jean-Baptiste_Faure
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Re: http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

Hi Marc,

Le 05/03/2011 08:50, Marc Paré a écrit :
> I am just re-reading my to-do list of LibreOffice in Academia and one
> of the oldest feature request is this one. I believe 8 years in
> request. Do you think that this feature request will ever have a
> chance at being accepted?
I am not sure it should be ;-)
- LibreOffice is not a clone of MS-Office ;
- What does Outline view of MS-Word that improved Navigator in
LibreOffice-Writer can't do ?

Have a nice day.
JBF

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

Thanks for the reply JBF

Le 2011-03-05 03:29, Jean-Baptiste Faure a écrit :

> Hi Marc,
>
> Le 05/03/2011 08:50, Marc Paré a écrit :
>> I am just re-reading my to-do list of LibreOffice in Academia and one
>> of the oldest feature request is this one. I believe 8 years in
>> request. Do you think that this feature request will ever have a
>> chance at being accepted?
> I am not sure it should be ;-)
> - LibreOffice is not a clone of MS-Office ;
> - What does Outline view of MS-Word that improved Navigator in
> LibreOffice-Writer can't do ?
>
> Have a nice day.
> JBF
>

The arguments for this is found in the bugzilla and comments:
http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 The bug is still
open, so I guess it is still being considered?

Cheers

Marc

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Jean-Baptiste_Faure Jean-Baptiste_Faure
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Re: http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

Le 05/03/2011 10:13, Marc Paré a écrit :

> Thanks for the reply JBF
>
> Le 2011-03-05 03:29, Jean-Baptiste Faure a écrit :
>> Hi Marc,
>>
>> Le 05/03/2011 08:50, Marc Paré a écrit :
>>> I am just re-reading my to-do list of LibreOffice in Academia and one
>>> of the oldest feature request is this one. I believe 8 years in
>>> request. Do you think that this feature request will ever have a
>>> chance at being accepted?
>> I am not sure it should be ;-)
>> - LibreOffice is not a clone of MS-Office ;
>> - What does Outline view of MS-Word that improved Navigator in
>> LibreOffice-Writer can't do ?
>>
>> Have a nice day.
>> JBF
>>
>
> The arguments for this is found in the bugzilla and comments:
> http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 The bug is still
> open, so I guess it is still being considered?

Yes, but it is a bug report for OpenOffice.org. The navigator has been
improved in LibreOffice.

Have a nice day
JBF

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Caolán McNamara Caolán McNamara
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Re: http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

In reply to this post by marcpare4
On Sat, 2011-03-05 at 02:50 -0500, Marc Paré wrote:
> I am just re-reading my to-do list of LibreOffice in Academia and one of
> the oldest feature request is this one. I believe 8 years in request. Do
> you think that this feature request will ever have a chance at being
> accepted?

As with anything, someone needs to actually do it. There are gadzillions
of requests for implementation of things, so if you're in a position to
have a stab at it, then that's the thing to try and do. Even a partial
starter implementation is likely sufficient to get the ball rolling on
any particular topic.

C.

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Donald Murray Donald Murray
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Re: http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

Caolán McNamara <caolanm@...> writes:

>
> On Sat, 2011-03-05 at 02:50 -0500, Marc Paré wrote:
> > I am just re-reading my to-do list of LibreOffice in Academia and one of
> > the oldest feature request is this one. I believe 8 years in request. Do
> > you think that this feature request will ever have a chance at being
> > accepted?
>
> As with anything, someone needs to actually do it. There are gadzillions
> of requests for implementation of things, so if you're in a position to
> have a stab at it, then that's the thing to try and do. Even a partial
> starter implementation is likely sufficient to get the ball rolling on
> any particular topic.
>
> C.
>
>

Outlining is the most commonly quoted reason for people not giving up using
MSWORD. It really is that important. In any forum where this subject is brought
up, there are loads of responses from people who say the same thing. I can't
really switch from MSWORD until Outline view is added. ....and no, the navigator
in Libre office doesn't even come close to doing what Outline view does in
MSWORD. I believe this is a feature, that when implemented, will causes
thousands of people to switch to linux full time....pretty much immediately. In
fact, many are just waiting for that feature.
I filed several bugs for this in OOffice, and every time was able to present
enough evidence as to the demand for this feature. Then, they'd assign it to
someone who had never used MSWORD, and then, this person would see that there
were several bugs related to this feature and say "this was already dealt with
in bug xyz", which of course it wasn't. So, it's like walking in a red-tape
circle where nothing ever can get done related to it.
Just accept it.....MSOFFICE is superior in every way to Libre and OOffice
because of the lack of Outline view in the word processor.
The features wanted are:
1. Outline numbering.
2. Collapsing and expanding of text inside headers at any level specified.
3. Single buttons to demote and promote a header withing the outline view.
4. Table of contents generation from the outline view.

Thank you
-Donald



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Michael Meeks-2 Michael Meeks-2
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Re: http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

Hi Donald,

On Sun, 2012-05-27 at 00:09 +0000, Donald Murray wrote:
> Caolán McNamara <caolanm@...> writes:
> > As with anything, someone needs to actually do it. There are gadzillions
> > of requests for implementation of things, so if you're in a position to
> > have a stab at it, then that's the thing to try and do. Even a partial
> > starter implementation is likely sufficient to get the ball rolling on
> > any particular topic.

        Caolan has the perfect take :-)

> Outlining is the most commonly quoted reason for people not giving up using
... < snip extensive promotion of the need for this feature > ...

        This is the developers list. It is used by developers to discuss
development: creating and fixing code, patch review and all sorts of
developery stuff.

        It is not a suitable forum for people to post feature wish-lists. If it
was we would be deluged in non-actionable and de-motivating E-mail from
users: all of whom are missing some feature, and/or have some
suggestion :-) that in turn would drive away the very developers we are
seeking to mentor, encourage & assist.

        If you wish to be involved in implementing something in this area -
"even a partial starter implementation" (as Caolan says) - then people
on the list are more than happy to invest their time to help get you
productive. If that is your intention, you're much more than welcome
here - otherwise, please continue the discussion on the discuss list.

        Thanks,

                Michael.

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Chris Williams Chris Williams
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Re: http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

Michael Meeks <michael.meeks <at> suse.com> writes:

>
> Hi Donald,
>
> On Sun, 2012-05-27 at 00:09 +0000, Donald Murray wrote:
> > Caolán McNamara <caolanm@...> writes:
> > > As with anything, someone needs to actually do it. There are gadzillions
> > > of requests for implementation of things, so if you're in a position to
> > > have a stab at it, then that's the thing to try and do. Even a partial
> > > starter implementation is likely sufficient to get the ball rolling on
> > > any particular topic.
>
> Caolan has the perfect take
>
> > Outlining is the most commonly quoted reason for people not giving up using
> ... < snip extensive promotion of the need for this feature > ...
>
> This is the developers list. It is used by developers to discuss
> development: creating and fixing code, patch review and all sorts of
> developery stuff.
>
> It is not a suitable forum for people to post feature wish-lists. If it
> was we would be deluged in non-actionable and de-motivating E-mail from
> users: all of whom are missing some feature, and/or have some
> suggestion  that in turn would drive away the very developers we are
> seeking to mentor, encourage & assist.
>
> If you wish to be involved in implementing something in this area -
> "even a partial starter implementation" (as Caolan says) - then people
> on the list are more than happy to invest their time to help get you
> productive. If that is your intention, you're much more than welcome
> here - otherwise, please continue the discussion on the discuss list.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Michael.
>

<Flame off>

I can understand both sides of the problem here, I have seen many blogs from
journalists who support Linux but say that it will never become mainstream until
the developers give the users what the users want regardless whether the
developers like what the users want or not.

The current situation is like going to a pub who have a Trad Jazz band on,
playing what they like, not what the customers want to hear and The Jazz band
getting upset when all the customers leave.

We all know that Microsoft's Operating systems still haven't attained what Linux
had years ago, so why do we (Linux users) have to put up with the reverse
situation with applications?

It is like you developers being forced into developing without using snippets or
syntax checkers, just because Mr Gates has them. Bill uses them so we won't,
just to spite him. Rearrange this to make a meaningful sentence:

Spite cutting off face to nose your your.

The danger here is that I and others would be prepared to pay a reasonable
amount for the features in Libreoffice that we want.

We all know that is the start of a slippery slope. So, here is the deal, you
give us what we want and we will let you use: vi spell nroff troff LatEx awk sed
and the pipe character for your word processing.

Just a thought

<Flame on>



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Michael Meeks-2 Michael Meeks-2
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Re: http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

Hi Chris,

On Fri, 2012-12-28 at 19:33 +0000, Chris Williams wrote:
>> Michael Meeks wrote:
> > This is the developers list. It is used by developers to discuss
> > development: creating and fixing code, patch review and all sorts of
> > developery stuff.
> >
> > It is not a suitable forum for people to post feature wish-lists.

        Sorry pardon - it is also not a suitable forum for people to discuss
feature wish-lists :-) This is because of the problem of being:

> > deluged in non-actionable and de-motivating E-mail from users: all of
> > whom are missing some feature, and/or have some suggestion that in
> > turn would drive away the very developers we are seeking to mentor,
> > encourage & assist.

        Your mail is totally inappropriate in this forum. Please head to the
discuss list to rant about how awful the developers are and how they are
not implementing XYZ pet feature that -you- -know- is the one feature
that really matters. Hopefully after a while in that forum, you'll
discover that in fact there are hundreds of individuals with equally
polarised views about other single features. After time, you -may- start
to get a sense of the scale of the task we have set ourselves :-) Then
perhaps you can come back and do some hacking with us to help fix one
such issue.

        Failing that, you're in risk of getting on some moderation list
here :-)

> I can understand both sides of the problem here, I have seen many blogs from
> journalists who support Linux but say that it will never become mainstream until
> the developers give the users what the users want regardless whether the
> developers like what the users want or not.

        Journalists are obliged to write -something- in their pieces, otherwise
there will be no content. This is a particularly helpful saw. Who the
user is and what they really want is totally open-ended and whenever
bold moves are made to help new users, the project gets flamed by some.
Currently those who pay contributors - get the fixes and features they
pay for, un-paid volunteers fix and implement whatever they have a
passion for. Previous attempts to coerce volunteers to do XYZ task /
bug-fix, and/or companies to invest in un-paid work have been a total
failure - instead we try to make it as easy and fun as we possibly can
to contribute to LibreOffice.

        Then again if you -really- want to get involved in working out "what
the users want" in some hard-data / scientific fashion - generating real
polling data, doing surveys as to what features people are most missing
etc. - that would be -really- useful. Impressively researched, hard data
helps drive our collective decision making really effectively. There are
lots of ideas here - surveys, analytics in the core, document analysis
etc. many of them need programming support: please do get involved there
you can make a big difference.

> The current situation is like going to a pub who have a Trad Jazz band on,
> playing what they like, not what the customers want to hear and The Jazz band
> getting upset when all the customers leave.

        Or is it like a free open-air bring-an-instrument open concert where
there are a large number of players working together to make a beautiful
sound, carefully train up new instrumentalists (even those with no prior
experience), and yet getting heckled by those with (apparently) little
interest in contributing positively and who don't have to be there. Most
such analogies are seriously flawed :-)

> The danger here is that I and others would be prepared to pay a reasonable
> amount for the features in Libreoffice that we want.

        Then that is no problem. This is a great way to contribute; there are
various companies and individuals you can contract privately to fix a
given feature. All creative hard-work done generating funding for
development work is much appreciated. I'm happy to give you a list of
contacts to do such work privately - it doesn't really belong on tis
list either - so just poke me.

> We all know that is the start of a slippery slope.

        Paying people to develop Free Software is a slippery slope ? I think
not - it's an ideal we're trying to grow over here: to build an ever
more credible and sustainable ecosystem such as you see (eg.) around the
Linux Kernel.

>  So, here is the deal, you give us what we want and we will let you

        I look forward to you 'letting me' get on with what I think is best for
the project with a bunch of friends and contributors I love ;-> Please
follow up on the discuss list, CC me there if you want a response - I'm
most happy to help you get plugged into contributing in some way that
helps you meet your goals for the project.

        All the best,

                Michael.

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