[libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

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MENGUAL Jean-Philippe MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
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[libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi,

Still NVDA 2014.4, LO 4.3.4, Windows 7: is there a setting to display
binding next to the commands which have one? Thus, on Linux, next to
Open, I read Ctrl+O). I cannot read this info on NVDA. Is that a NVDA
option? A LibreOffice option? Or just a bug? Do sighted people see the
binding displayed? If it's a bug, does it concern NVDA? LibreOffice?

Regards,

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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi :)
I am not even sure what "the bindings" are.  I don't 'see' them, or at
least i'm not aware of seeing them.
Regards from
Tom :)

On 6 December 2014 at 16:55, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Still NVDA 2014.4, LO 4.3.4, Windows 7: is there a setting to display
> binding next to the commands which have one? Thus, on Linux, next to Open,
> I read Ctrl+O). I cannot read this info on NVDA. Is that a NVDA option? A
> LibreOffice option? Or just a bug? Do sighted people see the binding
> displayed? If it's a bug, does it concern NVDA? LibreOffice?
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>
> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
>
> accelibreinfo, votre partenaire en informatique adaptée aux déficients
> visuels
>
> Mail: [hidden email]
>
> Site Web: http://www.accelibreinfo.eu
>
>
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Niklas Johansson Niklas Johansson
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

In reply to this post by MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
Hi

I'd say that it is a LibreOffice bug. To sighted users the key combination
is displayed in the menus of LibreOffice but only the name is exposed to
screen readers etc. Could you please file a bug and send me a note with the
bug number so I can fill it with some more detailed information on the
problem.

/Niklas

lördag 6 december 2014 skrev MENGUAL Jean-Philippe <[hidden email]>:

> Hi,
>
> Still NVDA 2014.4, LO 4.3.4, Windows 7: is there a setting to display
> binding next to the commands which have one? Thus, on Linux, next to Open,
> I read Ctrl+O). I cannot read this info on NVDA. Is that a NVDA option? A
> LibreOffice option? Or just a bug? Do sighted people see the binding
> displayed? If it's a bug, does it concern NVDA? LibreOffice?
>
> Regards,
>
> --
>
> Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
>
> accelibreinfo, votre partenaire en informatique adaptée aux déficients
> visuels
>
> Mail: [hidden email]
>
> Site Web: http://www.accelibreinfo.eu
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
> unsubscribe/
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> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

This post was updated on .
No, there is no bug--either in NVDA or LibreOffice

In NVDA 2014.4 open the  Preferences --> Object presentation  dialog, and check on the "Report object shortcut keys"

The majority of LibreOffice menu items have "accelerators" aka "short-cut keys" assigned.  They are all exposed to Assistive Technology, and will sound when NVDA is configured correctly.

Buttons on Toolbars without established "accelerators" must be navigated with functions keys, <Tab>s and Cursor movements, but each will sound.

Toolbar navigation is a series of <F10> to move to the main toolbar, then <F6> or <Shift><F6> to cycle onto each toolbar in sequence. <CTL><F6> returns focus and cursor to the open document.

Stuart
Niklas Johansson Niklas Johansson
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi

I still believe there is a bug or maybe we should call it an enhancement
request. It is true that accelerators are exposed properly through
IAccessible::get_accKeyboardShortcut, as they should. But reading
Microsoft notes [1] on the matter suggests that one should expose the
keyboard shortcut, aka Ctrl + O, together with the menu item name. This
is also how, for example, Firefox, Chrome, Internet Explorer, Acrobat
Reader does it. Am I missing some reason as to why we would not want to
do the same.

However Stuarts instructions in the previous mail is enough to quickly
get around in LibreOffice. Note also that there are extensive
information on keyboard shortcuts in the LibreOffice help. Se for example:
https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/General_Shortcut_Keys_in
or:
https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Shortcut_Keys_for_Writer


[1]
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd318482%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

Regards,
Niklas Johansson


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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi :)
I suspect that calling it an "Enhancement Request" might make people see it
in a more positive way.  "Bug report" sounds like a grumbly aunt or
something.

Also if it's something that LO has not had before then it is an
enhancement.  It's not like it was something that got broken or doesn't
quite work as it should.

I am struggling to work out how devs think but i am beginning to think the
above might be getting closer to it.
Regards from
Tom :)



On 12 December 2014 at 13:47, Niklas Johansson <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Hi
>
> I still believe there is a bug or maybe we should call it an enhancement
> request. It is true that accelerators are exposed properly through
> IAccessible::get_accKeyboardShortcut, as they should. But reading
> Microsoft notes [1] on the matter suggests that one should expose the
> keyboard shortcut, aka Ctrl + O, together with the menu item name. This is
> also how, for example, Firefox, Chrome, Internet Explorer, Acrobat Reader
> does it. Am I missing some reason as to why we would not want to do the
> same.
>
> However Stuarts instructions in the previous mail is enough to quickly get
> around in LibreOffice. Note also that there are extensive information on
> keyboard shortcuts in the LibreOffice help. Se for example:
> https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/General_Shortcut_Keys_in
> or:
> https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Shortcut_Keys_for_Writer
>
>
> [1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/
> dd318482%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
>
> Regards,
> Niklas Johansson
>
>
> --
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> deleted
>
>

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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi :)
Errr, excluding Stuart and others who work on Accessibility Issues and the
ones working on Base who are all total stars.  Especially Stuart imo
Regards from
Tom :)



On 12 December 2014 at 14:07, Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi :)
> I suspect that calling it an "Enhancement Request" might make people see
> it in a more positive way.  "Bug report" sounds like a grumbly aunt or
> something.
>
> Also if it's something that LO has not had before then it is an
> enhancement.  It's not like it was something that got broken or doesn't
> quite work as it should.
>
> I am struggling to work out how devs think but i am beginning to think the
> above might be getting closer to it.
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
> On 12 December 2014 at 13:47, Niklas Johansson <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I still believe there is a bug or maybe we should call it an enhancement
>> request. It is true that accelerators are exposed properly through
>> IAccessible::get_accKeyboardShortcut, as they should. But reading
>> Microsoft notes [1] on the matter suggests that one should expose the
>> keyboard shortcut, aka Ctrl + O, together with the menu item name. This is
>> also how, for example, Firefox, Chrome, Internet Explorer, Acrobat Reader
>> does it. Am I missing some reason as to why we would not want to do the
>> same.
>>
>> However Stuarts instructions in the previous mail is enough to quickly
>> get around in LibreOffice. Note also that there are extensive information
>> on keyboard shortcuts in the LibreOffice help. Se for example:
>> https://help.libreoffice.org/Common/General_Shortcut_Keys_in
>> or:
>> https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Shortcut_Keys_for_Writer
>>
>>
>> [1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/
>> dd318482%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
>>
>> Regards,
>> Niklas Johansson
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscribe@
>> global.libreoffice.org
>> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
>> unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>
>>

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

In reply to this post by Niklas Johansson
Niklas,

Sure, we could  make a distinction as Microsoft does, between the "access key" and a "keyboard accelerator/shortcut-key".

But, as you know the majority of AT support in OOo and derivatives like LibreOffice is structured around the accessibleRole assigned to an object--and from that comes accessibleName  and "access key" attributes if any.

For objects that have VCL or UI based "access keys" attributes, those are exposed to the UNO Accessibility API as the object is navigated, and the respective native accessibility bridge handles it--as the user has configured.

Menu items and GUI widgets (buttons, spinners, etc.)  that do not have an "access key" assigned will sound either the objects name or it's tooltip. Those that do, will also sound the name and the "access key".

With the shift of most of the GUI to UI, most "access keys" no longer are <Alt>+letter combinations. Rather they are just the letter -- and that might need to be adjusted at some point.

But global "keyboard accelerator/shortcuts-keys",  normally structured with <Ctrl>+letter, or <Ctrl>+<Shift>+letter are not otherwise exposed to AT as they are not associated with the UI object.  

Anyhow, looking at a Firefox session, there they have simply adjusted the objects accessibleName  and are appending the global shortcut-key to the name!   Nothing special.  The "access key" associated with the accessible object is exposed with AT.  It is exactly the same with Adobe Reader.

So, we could do the same, pretty trivial as it is only label changes, and some coordination with the l10n/i18n teams.

Stuart
TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi :)
If it's trivial and makes it more consistent with other apps then it sounds
like a really good option.  Such a good option that it worries me why it
hasn't been done already.  Maybe there is a good reason?

There have been a lot of positive changes in LibreOffice accessibility over
the last year so maybe that is a factor?  Also maybe other apps (such as
Firefox) have settled down to being more consistent with each other?

Would such a change create problems for existing users who are used to
using whatever keyboard short-cuts are currently being used in
LibreOffice?

If so is it likely to be easy to give people the choice?  At the moment
there is already a setting in the
Tools - Options
that allows people to choose between "LibreOffice dialogues" and "native
dialogues".  Would something like that be necessary to try to keep the
existing users happy?  If so would it be easy?

Regards from
Tom :)




On 12 December 2014 at 15:28, V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Niklas,
>
> Sure, we could  make a distinction as Microsoft does, between the "access
> key" and a "keyboard accelerator/shortcut-key".
>
> But, as you know the majority of AT support in OOo and derivatives like
> LibreOffice is structured around the accessibleRole assigned to an
> object--and from that comes accessibleName  and "access key" attributes if
> any.
>
> For objects that have VCL or UI based "access keys" attributes, those are
> exposed to the UNO Accessibility API as the object is navigated, and the
> respective native accessibility bridge handles it--as the user has
> configured.
>
> Menu items and GUI widgets (buttons, spinners, etc.)  that do not have an
> "access key" assigned will sound either the objects name or it's tooltip.
> Those that do, will also sound the name and the "access key".
>
> With the shift of most of the GUI to UI, most "access keys" no longer are
> <Alt>+letter combinations. Rather they are just the letter -- and that
> might
> need to be adjusted at some point.
>
> But global "keyboard accelerator/shortcuts-keys",  normally structured with
> <Ctrl>+letter, or <Ctrl>+<Shift>+letter are not otherwise exposed to AT as
> they are not associated with the UI object.
>
> Anyhow, looking at a Firefox session, there they have simply adjusted the
> objects accessibleName  and are appending the global shortcut-key to the
> name!   Nothing special.  The "access key" associated with the accessible
> object is exposed with AT.  It is exactly the same with Adobe Reader.
>
> So, we could do the same, pretty trivial as it is only label changes, and
> some coordination with the l10n/i18n teams.
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice-accessibility-Display-bindings-tp4131697p4132408.html
> Sent from the Accessibility mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>

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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi :)
Errr, in my questions i am not looking for certainties.  I'm just trying to
get a rough idea of what might be.

I often find that things which initially seem quite easy have some lurking
bug-bear waiting to bite me.  So i'm trying to guess at things that might
have been problems in the past, or might prevent LibreOffice from doing
something like this.

If the answers turn out to be wrong later on then it's likely to be my
fault for asking the wrong questions or not thinking of the right ones.
The worst thing imo would be to put loads of work into getting precise
accurate answers and then find no-one else is interested in going that
route anyway.
Regards from
Tom :)



On 12 December 2014 at 15:55, Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi :)
> If it's trivial and makes it more consistent with other apps then it
> sounds like a really good option.  Such a good option that it worries me
> why it hasn't been done already.  Maybe there is a good reason?
>
> There have been a lot of positive changes in LibreOffice accessibility
> over the last year so maybe that is a factor?  Also maybe other apps (such
> as Firefox) have settled down to being more consistent with each other?
>
> Would such a change create problems for existing users who are used to
> using whatever keyboard short-cuts are currently being used in
> LibreOffice?
>
> If so is it likely to be easy to give people the choice?  At the moment
> there is already a setting in the
> Tools - Options
> that allows people to choose between "LibreOffice dialogues" and "native
> dialogues".  Would something like that be necessary to try to keep the
> existing users happy?  If so would it be easy?
>
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
>
> On 12 December 2014 at 15:28, V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Niklas,
>>
>> Sure, we could  make a distinction as Microsoft does, between the "access
>> key" and a "keyboard accelerator/shortcut-key".
>>
>> But, as you know the majority of AT support in OOo and derivatives like
>> LibreOffice is structured around the accessibleRole assigned to an
>> object--and from that comes accessibleName  and "access key" attributes if
>> any.
>>
>> For objects that have VCL or UI based "access keys" attributes, those are
>> exposed to the UNO Accessibility API as the object is navigated, and the
>> respective native accessibility bridge handles it--as the user has
>> configured.
>>
>> Menu items and GUI widgets (buttons, spinners, etc.)  that do not have an
>> "access key" assigned will sound either the objects name or it's tooltip.
>> Those that do, will also sound the name and the "access key".
>>
>> With the shift of most of the GUI to UI, most "access keys" no longer are
>> <Alt>+letter combinations. Rather they are just the letter -- and that
>> might
>> need to be adjusted at some point.
>>
>> But global "keyboard accelerator/shortcuts-keys",  normally structured
>> with
>> <Ctrl>+letter, or <Ctrl>+<Shift>+letter are not otherwise exposed to AT as
>> they are not associated with the UI object.
>>
>> Anyhow, looking at a Firefox session, there they have simply adjusted the
>> objects accessibleName  and are appending the global shortcut-key to the
>> name!   Nothing special.  The "access key" associated with the accessible
>> object is exposed with AT.  It is exactly the same with Adobe Reader.
>>
>> So, we could do the same, pretty trivial as it is only label changes, and
>> some coordination with the l10n/i18n teams.
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice-accessibility-Display-bindings-tp4131697p4132408.html
>> Sent from the Accessibility mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to:
>> [hidden email]
>> Problems?
>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>
>>

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

@Tom, *,

No, you're asking the right question.  But you do need to look under the bonnet from time to time.

Within the LibreOffice code there are two broad classes of keyboard accelerators.   One is associated with the .uno action associated with each object in the user interface.  The other are specific key functions defined globally.

Most of the current implementation can be reviewed here:
Other than the GenericCommands.xcu, different modules assign "access keys" as needed  
http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/officecfg/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/UI/

These are the "global"  "keyboard accelerator/short-cut keys" and each LibreOffice module responds in some fashion to them.  The KEY_MOD1 and KEY_MOD2 differ depending on OS.
http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/vcl/source/window/keycod.cxx

The native accessibility bridges handle only the first, the "access keys". But does so pretty effectively at this point.

Enhancement would be to do as Mozilla and Adobe (and I assume Google) have done,  and simply label each menu item (or button) with its "keyboard accelerator/short-cut key" as appropriate for the function.   The rub would come with needing to accommodate keys for each OS and possibly  UI issues with the  l10n/i18n support.
MENGUAL Jean-Philippe MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi,

So if I understood all this thread:
1. Yes, LibreOffice presents to Iaccessible2, thus NVDA, the
"accelerator" checking on the box "Reading objects shortcuts".
2. No, LibreOffice doesn't send to Iaccessible2 the shortcut of the
objects which have one, such as ctrl-o, ctrl-p, ctrl-x, etc.

Should I report this to bugzilla now?

Regards,

Le 12/12/2014 18:00, V Stuart Foote a écrit :

> @Tom, *,
>
> No, you're asking the right question.  But you do need to look under the
> bonnet from time to time.
>
> Within the LibreOffice code there are two broad classes of keyboard
> accelerators.   One is associated with the .uno action associated with each
> object in the user interface.  The other are specific key functions defined
> globally.
>
> Most of the current implementation can be reviewed here:
> Other than the GenericCommands.xcu, different modules assign "access keys"
> as needed
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/officecfg/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/UI/
>
> These are the "global"  "keyboard accelerator/short-cut keys" and each
> LibreOffice module responds in some fashion to them.  The KEY_MOD1 and
> KEY_MOD2 differ depending on OS.
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/vcl/source/window/keycod.cxx
>
> The native accessibility bridges handle only the first, the "access keys".
> But does so pretty effectively at this point.
>
> Enhancement would be to do as Mozilla and Adobe (and I assume Google) have
> done,  and simply label each menu item (or button) with its "keyboard
> accelerator/short-cut key" as appropriate for the function.   The rub would
> come with needing to accommodate keys for each OS and possibly  UI issues
> with the  l10n/i18n support.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice-accessibility-Display-bindings-tp4131697p4132420.html
> Sent from the Accessibility mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


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Mail: [hidden email]

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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote
Hi :)
L10n lists are currently having a massive argument/discussion (discussion
is more accurate tbh) right now about the disruptive effect of minor
changes.

I'm not sure but i suspect that getting such a UI change within the next
couple of days might play out ok and catch the translators before they have
put too much time into too many strings and then finding they need to
repeat the work.

If it's not likely to be just a couple of days then it'd probably be better
for them if this sort of change didn't happen for a few months - or
longer.  There might be a chance of them automating something like this but
it'd take ages to set something up and they haven't agreed on getting the
automation bit sorted.
Regards from
Tom :)



On 12 December 2014 at 17:00, V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> @Tom, *,
>
> No, you're asking the right question.  But you do need to look under the
> bonnet from time to time.
>
> Within the LibreOffice code there are two broad classes of keyboard
> accelerators.   One is associated with the .uno action associated with each
> object in the user interface.  The other are specific key functions defined
> globally.
>
> Most of the current implementation can be reviewed here:
> Other than the GenericCommands.xcu, different modules assign "access keys"
> as needed
>
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/officecfg/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/UI/
>
> These are the "global"  "keyboard accelerator/short-cut keys" and each
> LibreOffice module responds in some fashion to them.  The KEY_MOD1 and
> KEY_MOD2 differ depending on OS.
> http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/vcl/source/window/keycod.cxx
>
> The native accessibility bridges handle only the first, the "access keys".
> But does so pretty effectively at this point.
>
> Enhancement would be to do as Mozilla and Adobe (and I assume Google) have
> done,  and simply label each menu item (or button) with its "keyboard
> accelerator/short-cut key" as appropriate for the function.   The rub would
> come with needing to accommodate keys for each OS and possibly  UI issues
> with the  l10n/i18n support.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice-accessibility-Display-bindings-tp4131697p4132420.html
> Sent from the Accessibility mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi Tom, all,
Le 14/12/2014 22:53, Tom Davies a écrit :
> Hi :)
> L10n lists are currently having a massive argument/discussion (discussion
> is more accurate tbh) right now about the disruptive effect of minor
> changes.

The problem is minor changes, like capital letters in menu entries, that
concerns only en_US version but because this version is the source for
all the localization, this is also visible in localized versions where
it could be considered as wasted time for localizers.

>
> I'm not sure but i suspect that getting such a UI change within the next
> couple of days might play out ok and catch the translators before they have
> put too much time into too many strings and then finding they need to
> repeat the work.
>
> If it's not likely to be just a couple of days then it'd probably be better
> for them if this sort of change didn't happen for a few months - or
> longer.  There might be a chance of them automating something like this but
> it'd take ages to set something up and they haven't agreed on getting the
> automation bit sorted.

Shortcuts can't be automated as they are localized (Ctrl and Shift). And
the problem with automation is that we need somebody to write the
scripts ;) The same for accelerators, where we need to adapt them to
translated words.
Anyway we will have a discussion about it with developers and UX team,
once we are out of the 4.4.0 rushes.
Cheers
Sophie

--
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Tel:+33683901545
Co-founder - Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi :)
Ok, so best left for a couple of months.

I have a feeling we might have managed to stay "on topic", or at least get
back to the original problem!  However that is so rare i can't quite
believe it!

@ Niklas, does that address the issue at all?

Regards from
Tom :)



On 15 December 2014 at 10:44, Sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Tom, all,
> Le 14/12/2014 22:53, Tom Davies a écrit :
> > Hi :)
> > L10n lists are currently having a massive argument/discussion (discussion
> > is more accurate tbh) right now about the disruptive effect of minor
> > changes.
>
> The problem is minor changes, like capital letters in menu entries, that
> concerns only en_US version but because this version is the source for
> all the localization, this is also visible in localized versions where
> it could be considered as wasted time for localizers.
> >
> > I'm not sure but i suspect that getting such a UI change within the next
> > couple of days might play out ok and catch the translators before they
> have
> > put too much time into too many strings and then finding they need to
> > repeat the work.
> >
> > If it's not likely to be just a couple of days then it'd probably be
> better
> > for them if this sort of change didn't happen for a few months - or
> > longer.  There might be a chance of them automating something like this
> but
> > it'd take ages to set something up and they haven't agreed on getting the
> > automation bit sorted.
>
> Shortcuts can't be automated as they are localized (Ctrl and Shift). And
> the problem with automation is that we need somebody to write the
> scripts ;) The same for accelerators, where we need to adapt them to
> translated words.
> Anyway we will have a discussion about it with developers and UX team,
> once we are out of the 4.4.0 rushes.
> Cheers
> Sophie
>
> --
> Sophie Gautier [hidden email]
> Tel:+33683901545
> Co-founder - Release coordinator
> The Document Foundation
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

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Niklas Johansson Niklas Johansson
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi

First of, I work on translation myself, alone in translating into
Swedish at the moment, so I'm well aware of these translation issues. ;)

In this particular case I believe that we can avoid extra workload on
the translation team. At least when it comes to the change/fix that I
have in mind. The problem in this case is strictly a Windows
accessibility issue were the shortcut string is already displayed in the
menu entries but not forwarded to accessibility tools. Now what I
believe needs to be done is to find the correct place to actually
forward the information, it is already forwarded on Mac and Linux.
Finding the correct place to change is not that easy, but I believe that
it can be done without effecting the translation team. Again I'm not
taking about adding new strings to menu entries just use the information
that is already present and present it to accessibility tools as well.

Note that I'm swamped with work (at my daytime job) and when I get some
spare time I need to work on the translation and spend time with my ~4
months old baby girl. This is also one of the reasons why I thought a
bug should be filed so we can keep track of the bug, and I can add my
findings as I try to narrow in on the issue. Thereby also making it
easier for someone else to complete the work if I can't find the time.

Regards,
Niklas Johansson

Tom Davies skrev den 2014-12-16 14:15:

> Hi :)
> Ok, so best left for a couple of months.
>
> I have a feeling we might have managed to stay "on topic", or at least get
> back to the original problem!  However that is so rare i can't quite
> believe it!
>
> @ Niklas, does that address the issue at all?
>
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
> On 15 December 2014 at 10:44, Sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Tom, all,
>> Le 14/12/2014 22:53, Tom Davies a écrit :
>>> Hi :)
>>> L10n lists are currently having a massive argument/discussion (discussion
>>> is more accurate tbh) right now about the disruptive effect of minor
>>> changes.
>> The problem is minor changes, like capital letters in menu entries, that
>> concerns only en_US version but because this version is the source for
>> all the localization, this is also visible in localized versions where
>> it could be considered as wasted time for localizers.
>>> I'm not sure but i suspect that getting such a UI change within the next
>>> couple of days might play out ok and catch the translators before they
>> have
>>> put too much time into too many strings and then finding they need to
>>> repeat the work.
>>>
>>> If it's not likely to be just a couple of days then it'd probably be
>> better
>>> for them if this sort of change didn't happen for a few months - or
>>> longer.  There might be a chance of them automating something like this
>> but
>>> it'd take ages to set something up and they haven't agreed on getting the
>>> automation bit sorted.
>> Shortcuts can't be automated as they are localized (Ctrl and Shift). And
>> the problem with automation is that we need somebody to write the
>> scripts ;) The same for accelerators, where we need to adapt them to
>> translated words.
>> Anyway we will have a discussion about it with developers and UX team,
>> once we are out of the 4.4.0 rushes.
>> Cheers
>> Sophie
>>
>> --
>> Sophie Gautier [hidden email]
>> Tel:+33683901545
>> Co-founder - Release coordinator
>> The Document Foundation
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>> Problems?
>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>


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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi :)
Ok, so posting the bug report sounds like a great idea to me.  I think just
go for it!  There is a drop-down in the bug reporting system that lets you
mark it as a "feature request".  I think marking it that way would make
more sense to devs.

Stuart's posts might be useful, or might give you something to add later.

A lot of people just post bug reports without asking anyone else what they
think and it sounds like you are a LOT more experienced with the issues.
So it was really kind to ask what we thought!  Just go for it though :)
Thanks :)
Regards from
Tom :)


On 17 December 2014 at 11:47, Niklas Johansson <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Hi
>
> First of, I work on translation myself, alone in translating into Swedish
> at the moment, so I'm well aware of these translation issues. ;)
>
> In this particular case I believe that we can avoid extra workload on the
> translation team. At least when it comes to the change/fix that I have in
> mind. The problem in this case is strictly a Windows accessibility issue
> were the shortcut string is already displayed in the menu entries but not
> forwarded to accessibility tools. Now what I believe needs to be done is to
> find the correct place to actually forward the information, it is already
> forwarded on Mac and Linux. Finding the correct place to change is not that
> easy, but I believe that it can be done without effecting the translation
> team. Again I'm not taking about adding new strings to menu entries just
> use the information that is already present and present it to accessibility
> tools as well.
>
> Note that I'm swamped with work (at my daytime job) and when I get some
> spare time I need to work on the translation and spend time with my ~4
> months old baby girl. This is also one of the reasons why I thought a bug
> should be filed so we can keep track of the bug, and I can add my findings
> as I try to narrow in on the issue. Thereby also making it easier for
> someone else to complete the work if I can't find the time.
>
> Regards,
> Niklas Johansson
>
> Tom Davies skrev den 2014-12-16 14:15:
>
>  Hi :)
>> Ok, so best left for a couple of months.
>>
>> I have a feeling we might have managed to stay "on topic", or at least get
>> back to the original problem!  However that is so rare i can't quite
>> believe it!
>>
>> @ Niklas, does that address the issue at all?
>>
>> Regards from
>> Tom :)
>>
>>
>>
>> On 15 December 2014 at 10:44, Sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tom, all,
>>> Le 14/12/2014 22:53, Tom Davies a écrit :
>>>
>>>> Hi :)
>>>> L10n lists are currently having a massive argument/discussion
>>>> (discussion
>>>> is more accurate tbh) right now about the disruptive effect of minor
>>>> changes.
>>>>
>>> The problem is minor changes, like capital letters in menu entries, that
>>> concerns only en_US version but because this version is the source for
>>> all the localization, this is also visible in localized versions where
>>> it could be considered as wasted time for localizers.
>>>
>>>> I'm not sure but i suspect that getting such a UI change within the next
>>>> couple of days might play out ok and catch the translators before they
>>>>
>>> have
>>>
>>>> put too much time into too many strings and then finding they need to
>>>> repeat the work.
>>>>
>>>> If it's not likely to be just a couple of days then it'd probably be
>>>>
>>> better
>>>
>>>> for them if this sort of change didn't happen for a few months - or
>>>> longer.  There might be a chance of them automating something like this
>>>>
>>> but
>>>
>>>> it'd take ages to set something up and they haven't agreed on getting
>>>> the
>>>> automation bit sorted.
>>>>
>>> Shortcuts can't be automated as they are localized (Ctrl and Shift). And
>>> the problem with automation is that we need somebody to write the
>>> scripts ;) The same for accelerators, where we need to adapt them to
>>> translated words.
>>> Anyway we will have a discussion about it with developers and UX team,
>>> once we are out of the 4.4.0 rushes.
>>> Cheers
>>> Sophie
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sophie Gautier [hidden email]
>>> Tel:+33683901545
>>> Co-founder - Release coordinator
>>> The Document Foundation
>>>
>>> --
>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscribe@
>>> global.libreoffice.org
>>> Problems?
>>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>>> deleted
>>>
>>>
>
> --
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MENGUAL Jean-Philippe MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi,

Who reports the bug? Does someone want to try? Should I do?

Regards,

Le 17/12/2014 13:05, Tom Davies a écrit :

> Hi :)
> Ok, so posting the bug report sounds like a great idea to me.  I think just
> go for it!  There is a drop-down in the bug reporting system that lets you
> mark it as a "feature request".  I think marking it that way would make
> more sense to devs.
>
> Stuart's posts might be useful, or might give you something to add later.
>
> A lot of people just post bug reports without asking anyone else what they
> think and it sounds like you are a LOT more experienced with the issues.
> So it was really kind to ask what we thought!  Just go for it though :)
> Thanks :)
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
> On 17 December 2014 at 11:47, Niklas Johansson <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> First of, I work on translation myself, alone in translating into Swedish
>> at the moment, so I'm well aware of these translation issues. ;)
>>
>> In this particular case I believe that we can avoid extra workload on the
>> translation team. At least when it comes to the change/fix that I have in
>> mind. The problem in this case is strictly a Windows accessibility issue
>> were the shortcut string is already displayed in the menu entries but not
>> forwarded to accessibility tools. Now what I believe needs to be done is to
>> find the correct place to actually forward the information, it is already
>> forwarded on Mac and Linux. Finding the correct place to change is not that
>> easy, but I believe that it can be done without effecting the translation
>> team. Again I'm not taking about adding new strings to menu entries just
>> use the information that is already present and present it to accessibility
>> tools as well.
>>
>> Note that I'm swamped with work (at my daytime job) and when I get some
>> spare time I need to work on the translation and spend time with my ~4
>> months old baby girl. This is also one of the reasons why I thought a bug
>> should be filed so we can keep track of the bug, and I can add my findings
>> as I try to narrow in on the issue. Thereby also making it easier for
>> someone else to complete the work if I can't find the time.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Niklas Johansson
>>
>> Tom Davies skrev den 2014-12-16 14:15:
>>
>>   Hi :)
>>> Ok, so best left for a couple of months.
>>>
>>> I have a feeling we might have managed to stay "on topic", or at least get
>>> back to the original problem!  However that is so rare i can't quite
>>> believe it!
>>>
>>> @ Niklas, does that address the issue at all?
>>>
>>> Regards from
>>> Tom :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 15 December 2014 at 10:44, Sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tom, all,
>>>> Le 14/12/2014 22:53, Tom Davies a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Hi :)
>>>>> L10n lists are currently having a massive argument/discussion
>>>>> (discussion
>>>>> is more accurate tbh) right now about the disruptive effect of minor
>>>>> changes.
>>>>>
>>>> The problem is minor changes, like capital letters in menu entries, that
>>>> concerns only en_US version but because this version is the source for
>>>> all the localization, this is also visible in localized versions where
>>>> it could be considered as wasted time for localizers.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure but i suspect that getting such a UI change within the next
>>>>> couple of days might play out ok and catch the translators before they
>>>>>
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>> put too much time into too many strings and then finding they need to
>>>>> repeat the work.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it's not likely to be just a couple of days then it'd probably be
>>>>>
>>>> better
>>>>
>>>>> for them if this sort of change didn't happen for a few months - or
>>>>> longer.  There might be a chance of them automating something like this
>>>>>
>>>> but
>>>>
>>>>> it'd take ages to set something up and they haven't agreed on getting
>>>>> the
>>>>> automation bit sorted.
>>>>>
>>>> Shortcuts can't be automated as they are localized (Ctrl and Shift). And
>>>> the problem with automation is that we need somebody to write the
>>>> scripts ;) The same for accelerators, where we need to adapt them to
>>>> translated words.
>>>> Anyway we will have a discussion about it with developers and UX team,
>>>> once we are out of the 4.4.0 rushes.
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Sophie
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sophie Gautier [hidden email]
>>>> Tel:+33683901545
>>>> Co-founder - Release coordinator
>>>> The Document Foundation
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscribe@
>>>> global.libreoffice.org
>>>> Problems?
>>>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>>>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
>>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>>>> deleted
>>>>
>>>>
>> --
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>>


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Mail: [hidden email]

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Niklas Johansson Niklas Johansson
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

Hi

We might be able to skip the bug report this time, at least I hope so. I
just pushed a patch to gerrit. Let's see how that turns out. I'll let
you know if/when it gets pushed to master so it can be properly tested.
And I still don't think the patch effects the localization process a bit.

Regards,
Niklas Johansson

MENGUAL Jean-Philippe skrev den 2014-12-17 21:55:
> Hi,
>
> Who reports the bug? Does someone want to try? Should I do?
>
> Regards,
>

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Niklas Johansson Niklas Johansson
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Display bindings

So the change is in the daily builds of LibreOffice. I would like to
encourage you to try it out and see what you think. I will not push it
backwards towards LibreOffice 4.4 or earlier at this point, since I
think it might be good to discuss if this really is what we want.

Exposing the keyboard shortcuts as a part of menu names is what
traditionally is recommended and what most of the applications is doing
(not counting ribbon based applications). However looking at ribbon
based applications like Word or Explorer seem to indicate that only the
accelerators is exposed but not the keyboard shortcuts.
The main problem with exposing the keyboard shortcut is that if the
accelerator is set to be announced it is announced directly after the
keyboard shortcut, making everything a bit hard to hear. Also if we
append it to the announcement of the menu item it will always be announced.

Again please try out one of the daily builds and let me know what you
think. For example this one
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/master/Win-x86@42/2015-01-16_01.53.40/libo-master~2015-01-16_01.53.40_LibreOfficeDev_4.5.0.0.alpha0_Win_x86.msi
The daily build can be installed alongside your current LibreOffice
installation and will be installed with the name LibreOfficeDev instead
of just LibreOffice.

Thanks,
Niklas


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