[libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

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Bryen Yunashko Bryen Yunashko
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[libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

Hello,  I was given this email address and hope it is the right one to
contact.

I recently set up a Windows laptop with Windows 10 Creators Edition and
have JAWS 18 installed.  Both are fully up to the latest updates.    A
couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great difficulty
because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop working and then
restart itself.

A number of buttons and fields didn't work either.   So, I put it aside for
a while.   This week I decided to try again and asked someone to update the
latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible for me.

Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything.  It is completely
"hidden."   But I know LO is actually running because I will randomly type
some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt to
save or discard my file.

But while LO is open, nothing works.  No menu button, tabs, arrow keys,
nothing.

Is this a known problem?

Thanks,
Bryen M Yunashko

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

Bryen Yunashko wrote

> ... A couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great
> difficulty because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop working and
> then restart itself.
>
> A number of buttons and fields didn't work either.   So, I put it aside
> for a while.   This week I decided to try again and asked someone to
> update the latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible for
> me.
>
> Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything.  It is completely
> "hidden."   But I know LO is actually running because I will randomly type
> some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt to
> save or discard my file.
>
> But while LO is open, nothing works.  No menu button, tabs, arrow keys,
> nothing.
>
> Is this a known problem?

Completely normal...

LibreOffice implements a native Windows accessibility bridge based on the
opensource IAccessible2 API

Reference:
http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/

Unfortunately for JAWS users Freedom Scientific has never seen fit to
implement modular support for IA2, so the short answer is it is known and
JAWS willl not work with LibreOffice.

You will need to install NVDA as a free and open source Windows backup to
JAWS. The screen reader navigation is a bit different--but fidelity of IA2
accessible content is much better.  LibreOffice accessible event based
support is pretty complete--and its screen review/Graphics API "screen
scraping" rounds things out.

Available here:
https://www.nvaccess.org/

Let us know how you make out.





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David Goldfield-4 David Goldfield-4
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

This is distressing. Several years ago, JAWS was working reasonably well
with LibreOffice, if my memory is correct, but I have also encountered
the same problem with more recent versions. As you say, NVDA offers much
better support. While NVDA has been my screen reader of choice for nine
years I would encourage users of JAWS to contact VFO at [hidden email]
to let them know your feelings regarding the lack of support being
offered by JAWS for this excellent suite.



David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 5/4/2018 2:59 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote:

> Bryen Yunashko wrote
>> ... A couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great
>> difficulty because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop working and
>> then restart itself.
>>
>> A number of buttons and fields didn't work either.   So, I put it aside
>> for a while.   This week I decided to try again and asked someone to
>> update the latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible for
>> me.
>>
>> Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything.  It is completely
>> "hidden."   But I know LO is actually running because I will randomly type
>> some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt to
>> save or discard my file.
>>
>> But while LO is open, nothing works.  No menu button, tabs, arrow keys,
>> nothing.
>>
>> Is this a known problem?
> Completely normal...
>
> LibreOffice implements a native Windows accessibility bridge based on the
> opensource IAccessible2 API
>
> Reference:
> http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/
>
> Unfortunately for JAWS users Freedom Scientific has never seen fit to
> implement modular support for IA2, so the short answer is it is known and
> JAWS willl not work with LibreOffice.
>
> You will need to install NVDA as a free and open source Windows backup to
> JAWS. The screen reader navigation is a bit different--but fidelity of IA2
> accessible content is much better.  LibreOffice accessible event based
> support is pretty complete--and its screen review/Graphics API "screen
> scraping" rounds things out.
>
> Available here:
> https://www.nvaccess.org/
>
> Let us know how you make out.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility-f2006038.html
>


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Alex Midence Alex Midence
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RE: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

I've done it before.  They didn't seem to care.  The guy told me LO needed to be written to use UIA.  Very depressing.  So, I gave up and started using IBM Lotus Symphony on Windows and only use LibreOffice on Linux ever since.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Goldfield [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 4:19 PM
To: V Stuart Foote <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

This is distressing. Several years ago, JAWS was working reasonably well with LibreOffice, if my memory is correct, but I have also encountered the same problem with more recent versions. As you say, NVDA offers much better support. While NVDA has been my screen reader of choice for nine years I would encourage users of JAWS to contact VFO at [hidden email] to let them know your feelings regarding the lack of support being offered by JAWS for this excellent suite.



David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com On 5/4/2018 2:59 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote:

> Bryen Yunashko wrote
>> ... A couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great
>> difficulty because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop
>> working and then restart itself.
>>
>> A number of buttons and fields didn't work either.   So, I put it aside
>> for a while.   This week I decided to try again and asked someone to
>> update the latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible
>> for me.
>>
>> Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything.  It is completely
>> "hidden."   But I know LO is actually running because I will randomly type
>> some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt
>> to save or discard my file.
>>
>> But while LO is open, nothing works.  No menu button, tabs, arrow
>> keys, nothing.
>>
>> Is this a known problem?
> Completely normal...
>
> LibreOffice implements a native Windows accessibility bridge based on
> the opensource IAccessible2 API
>
> Reference:
> http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/
>
> Unfortunately for JAWS users Freedom Scientific has never seen fit to
> implement modular support for IA2, so the short answer is it is known
> and JAWS willl not work with LibreOffice.
>
> You will need to install NVDA as a free and open source Windows backup
> to JAWS. The screen reader navigation is a bit different--but fidelity
> of IA2 accessible content is much better.  LibreOffice accessible
> event based support is pretty complete--and its screen review/Graphics
> API "screen scraping" rounds things out.
>
> Available here:
> https://www.nvaccess.org/
>
> Let us know how you make out.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility-f2006038.html
>


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Blindjourno Blindjourno
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

In reply to this post by David Goldfield-4
Since you all can take code from OO, can't you take basically, all of
their accessibility information and use it in LO? I mean, I stopped
using JAWS years ago, but I heard from other people that JAWS works with
OO? Would that be a lot of work? Taking all of the accessibility
information from OO because OO is very accessible, just not updated or
even nearly as stable.


On 5/4/2018 4:18 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

> This is distressing. Several years ago, JAWS was working reasonably
> well with LibreOffice, if my memory is correct, but I have also
> encountered the same problem with more recent versions. As you say,
> NVDA offers much better support. While NVDA has been my screen reader
> of choice for nine years I would encourage users of JAWS to contact
> VFO at [hidden email] to let them know your feelings regarding the
> lack of support being offered by JAWS for this excellent suite.
>
>
>
> David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
> On 5/4/2018 2:59 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote:
>> Bryen Yunashko wrote
>>> ... A couple of months ago, I installed LibreOffice and had great
>>> difficulty because often when I started up LO, Jaws would stop
>>> working and
>>> then restart itself.
>>>
>>> A number of buttons and fields didn't work either.   So, I put it aside
>>> for a while.   This week I decided to try again and asked someone to
>>> update the latest LO as the inplace update button wasn't accessible for
>>> me.
>>>
>>> Now, when I start LO, it does not even speak anything.  It is
>>> completely
>>> "hidden."   But I know LO is actually running because I will
>>> randomly type
>>> some text, then press Alt+F4 to close the program and I get a prompt to
>>> save or discard my file.
>>>
>>> But while LO is open, nothing works.  No menu button, tabs, arrow keys,
>>> nothing.
>>>
>>> Is this a known problem?
>> Completely normal...
>>
>> LibreOffice implements a native Windows accessibility bridge based on
>> the
>> opensource IAccessible2 API
>>
>> Reference:
>> http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/
>>
>> Unfortunately for JAWS users Freedom Scientific has never seen fit to
>> implement modular support for IA2, so the short answer is it is known
>> and
>> JAWS willl not work with LibreOffice.
>>
>> You will need to install NVDA as a free and open source Windows
>> backup to
>> JAWS. The screen reader navigation is a bit different--but fidelity
>> of IA2
>> accessible content is much better.  LibreOffice accessible event based
>> support is pretty complete--and its screen review/Graphics API "screen
>> scraping" rounds things out.
>>
>> Available here:
>> https://www.nvaccess.org/
>>
>> Let us know how you make out.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from:
>> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility-f2006038.html
>>
>
>


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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

Blindjourno wrote
> Since you all can take code from OO, can't you take basically, all of
> their accessibility information and use it in LO? I mean, I stopped
> using JAWS years ago, but I heard from other people that JAWS works with
> OO? Would that be a lot of work? Taking all of the accessibility
> information from OO because OO is very accessible, just not updated or
> even nearly as stable.

Apache OpenOffice (AOO) uses the same IAccessible2 API, but unlike
LibreOffice they left the MSAA/IAccessible API in place, so there is
marginal Assistive Technology tool support in AOO with JAWS. And, nothing
that LibreOffice would care to implement--thank you.

Before its demise WindowsEyes had support for select IA2 based
applications--but never LibreOffice or AOO.

VFO/Freedom Scientific's refusal to support accessible events instrumented
with IA2 API has never made much sense to me personally, but their
insistence on Windows applications adopting Microsoft UI Automation (UIA)
brands them as a second rate player in the Free and Open Source Software
arena. It is not their business model--too bad if you are dependent on them.

LibreOffice as an OpenSource and cross platform development project is not
obliged to provide proprietary UIA bindings--an extension to "bridge" IA2 to
UIA could be developed--but we'll leave that to Freedom Scientific to
implement if they choose. We'll concentrate on making the native IA2/ATK &
AT-SPI/NSAccessibility bridges function cross platform against LibreOffices
internal accessibility modules.

For any JAWS user on Windows--LibreOffice is accessible at no cost, simply
install NVDA. Alternatively, ORCA on a Linux will do well, but if you need
more hand holding for a small fee the Hypra project's U.A.S. "Universally
Accessible operating System"  is a first rate Linux Debian distribution.

Enjoy...



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Blindjourno Blindjourno
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[libreoffice-accessibility] navigating the autocorrect options table?

Using the latest NVDA on windows 10, I am having a really hard time
navigating through the autocorrect options tab within the dialog where
users can check or uncheck options like capitalize first letter of
sentences and otherwise? When I try to navigate the table using my table
keys, nothing is spoken so I have no idea what I am checking or
unchecking. When I tab, I hear, only, checkbox. Could someone make those
row headers read automatically?

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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] navigating the autocorrect options table?

Blindjourno wrote
> Using the latest NVDA on windows 10, I am having a really hard time
> navigating through the autocorrect options tab within the dialog where
> users can check or uncheck options like capitalize first letter of
> sentences and otherwise? When I try to navigate the table using my table
> keys, nothing is spoken so I have no idea what I am checking or
> unchecking. When I tab, I hear, only, checkbox. Could someone make those
> row headers read automatically?

That is known a11y issue inherited from OpenOffice.org and is open in the
LibreOffice Bugzilla as  tdf#88761
<https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88761>  

I'll give it a bump as it is pretty annoying...



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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] navigating the autocorrect options table?

Quintin C. had commented on similar issue with the Expert Configuration
dialog tree's table rows ( tdf#99609
<https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99609>  ) that with
NVDA in Object review mode--you are able to navigate the Table in the
Options tab of the AutoCorrect Options dialog.

That is forward with the "Move to next object" or backward with the "Move to
prior object" -- e.g. NVDA+numpad-6, NVDA+numpad-4

The table is arranged in 3 columns -- 1st column is a check box to be
applied when Modifying existing text, the 2nd column is a check box to be
applied while Typing in new text,  the 3rd column is the auto correct
attribute affected by the check boxes in column 1 & 2.

So, you are not completely blocked from doing the auto-correct
configuration.



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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote
Hi :)
As i understand it ...

i think the Apache Open Office licensing is somewhat more proprietary so we
can't legally copy their code.  They can copy our's.

This led to IBM giving Apache a copy of all their accesibility code from
their Lotus Symphony Suite.

Back when Sun owned OpenOffice, back then called OO.o, there were numerous
downstream projects such as IBM's Lotus Symphony, Go-OO (as used in many
versions of Linux), NeoOffice (Mac) and others.  Each added extra code or
re-wrote parts and each had it's own niche market.  When Sun got taken over
by Oracle many of Sun's Open Source projects forked.

Since then most of the old projects downstream of OO.o have merged into
LibreOffice along with nearly all the personnel and community that had been
working on OO.o.  IBM were the exception.  They didn't want to make their
code Free for everyone to copy so they gave it to the Apache Foundation
(Plc?).

However, along with many other office suites and office programs, we
both/all use the same formats as each other.  The "Open Document Format",
known as ODF, unites us in ways that different versions of MS Office have
never been consistent with each other.  Oddly quite a few people work in
both projects so in some ways we are still 1 community but with 2 official
organisations and 2 competing products! :)

Of course we can still all use the older MS Formats (.doc and .xls etc) to
share documents with other people but it's usually best to keep an
'original' in ODF rather than rely on MS's unreliable formats.

The ODF for text-based documents (ie done on word-processors such as
Writer) is .odt - the ODF for spreadsheets is .ods

I may have missed a wrinkle or two but that is all as i understand it.


So hopefully Apache Open Office or IBM's Lotus Symphony should be fine for
Windows.  AOO is the most up-to-date of those and is still free and is
still actively being developed and has a nice community.  Too many "and"s!

Btw this is the first time I've heard of a difference between LibreOffice
on Windows and LibreOffice on Linux.  It's another reason I'm glad of
having moved mostly away from Windows.  I still have dual boots on some
machines but I aalmost entirely use Linux now :)

Good luck and regards from
a Tom :)



On 4 May 2018 23:43, "V Stuart Foote" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Blindjourno wrote

> Since you all can take code from OO, can't you take basically, all of
> their accessibility information and use it in LO? I mean, I stopped
> using JAWS years ago, but I heard from other people that JAWS works with
> OO? Would that be a lot of work? Taking all of the accessibility
> information from OO because OO is very accessible, just not updated or
> even nearly as stable.

Apache OpenOffice (AOO) uses the same IAccessible2 API, but unlike
LibreOffice they left the MSAA/IAccessible API in place, so there is
marginal Assistive Technology tool support in AOO with JAWS. And, nothing
that LibreOffice would care to implement--thank you.

Before its demise WindowsEyes had support for select IA2 based
applications--but never LibreOffice or AOO.

VFO/Freedom Scientific's refusal to support accessible events instrumented
with IA2 API has never made much sense to me personally, but their
insistence on Windows applications adopting Microsoft UI Automation (UIA)
brands them as a second rate player in the Free and Open Source Software
arena. It is not their business model--too bad if you are dependent on them.

LibreOffice as an OpenSource and cross platform development project is not
obliged to provide proprietary UIA bindings--an extension to "bridge" IA2 to
UIA could be developed--but we'll leave that to Freedom Scientific to
implement if they choose. We'll concentrate on making the native IA2/ATK &
AT-SPI/NSAccessibility bridges function cross platform against LibreOffices
internal accessibility modules.

For any JAWS user on Windows--LibreOffice is accessible at no cost, simply
install NVDA. Alternatively, ORCA on a Linux will do well, but if you need
more hand holding for a small fee the Hypra project's U.A.S. "Universally
Accessible operating System"  is a first rate Linux Debian distribution.

Enjoy...




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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote
On 05/04/2018 10:43 PM, V Stuart Foote wrote:

> VFO/Freedom Scientific's refusal to support accessible events instrumented
> with IA2 API has never made much sense to me personally, but their

VFO is more interested in collecting royalties on its patents, than it
is in providing working products. _Enhanced Vision_ "joined" FVO in
February.

> For any JAWS user on Windows--LibreOffice is accessible at no cost, simply install NVDA.

Installing NVDA is a non-starter.
Issue # 1: Where are the trainers?

Whilst this is a chicken/egg question, the simple reality is that the
government agencies that provide a11y tools and solutions, sub-contract
training out, and if they don't have an NVDA trainer in their list of
approved and authorized vendors, they won't provide NVDA.

That FLOSS is destructive to those government agencies, is yet another
reason why they are reluctant to provide FLOSS.

###

There is a Windows 10 S to Pro free conversion for those requiring
accessible assistive software, which gives one an enhanced version of
Narrator. I have no idea what "an enhanced version of Narrator"
provides. I have no idea how well Narrator works with LibO. (FWIW, I
don't do Windows.)

jonathon

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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Windows LO with JAWS

In reply to this post by TomD
On 05/05/2018 04:02 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
> i think the Apache Open Office licensing is somewhat more proprietary so we
> can't legally copy their code.  They can copy our's.

Apache Open Office uses the Apache License 2.0.
LibreOffice uses Mozilla Public License v2.0.

In theory, the two licenses are compatible.

The Apache Software Foundation has a formal set of policies, practices,
and procedures regarding code used in projects under its domain. One of
those policies is to be able to provide formal documentation regarding
the providence of each line of code, in each project. As a consequence,
code that started life in LibO won't be found in AOo.

The Document Foundation has an informal set of polices, practices, and
procedures regarding the code used in projects under its domain. Code
providence is not a primary issue, and as such, code that started life
in AOo can be utilized in LibO. Due to changes in the LibO code base,
code from outside the project will probably require an extensive
rewrite, before it runs correctly within the existing LibO code base.
Nonetheless, you will occasionally stumble across code in LibO, that
started life in AOo.

jonathon

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