[libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

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Jelle Mulder Jelle Mulder
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[libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

Hi there,

Though I really like the whole localisation effort, I'd really appreciate  
it if the installer had some button to select the language (in readable  
format) to install in rather than fill my screen with unintelligible  
chinese characters and no friggin clue what the questions posed might be.  
The fact that I'm cursed with a Chinese version OS UI doesn't say that I  
want to install the space invader version of the application. The same  
would apply to many of the other to me exotic languages the world is  
enriched with. A Chinese immigrant in Zanzibar cannot make sense of the  
swahili version either.

As a result I end up having to remove all the localisation files after  
install and hope the default font doesn't look too horrible in my UI. LO  
is not the only one with this obvious mistake. Google doesn't get it  
eithyer for instance, but really. One bitmap button, saying default  
install English would be nice. Most people can work from that point.

Opera webbrowser shows how to do it correctly. The installer will enable  
you to select the desired installation language in that language itself.  
UTF-8 should support this in a generally available font.

Cheers,

Jelle Mulder

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Jonathan Aquilina Jonathan Aquilina
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

Jelle and everyone,

 Thinking about this right now the system is flawed in the sense you have
to download the language packs manually and install them manually, could we
integrate something into the installer where it will download and
autoinstall the language packs for everyone that wants them allowing them
to choose which language they want?


On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Jelle Mulder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> Though I really like the whole localisation effort, I'd really appreciate
> it if the installer had some button to select the language (in readable
> format) to install in rather than fill my screen with unintelligible
> chinese characters and no friggin clue what the questions posed might be.
> The fact that I'm cursed with a Chinese version OS UI doesn't say that I
> want to install the space invader version of the application. The same
> would apply to many of the other to me exotic languages the world is
> enriched with. A Chinese immigrant in Zanzibar cannot make sense of the
> swahili version either.
>
> As a result I end up having to remove all the localisation files after
> install and hope the default font doesn't look too horrible in my UI. LO is
> not the only one with this obvious mistake. Google doesn't get it eithyer
> for instance, but really. One bitmap button, saying default install English
> would be nice. Most people can work from that point.
>
> Opera webbrowser shows how to do it correctly. The installer will enable
> you to select the desired installation language in that language itself.
> UTF-8 should support this in a generally available font.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jelle Mulder
>
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Michael Bauer Michael Bauer
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

+1 I've been complaining about this for ... years? The process is
different on each OS too, on Windows you download a multi-locale file by
default and have to magically know that you have to choose "Custom" to
select just the languages you know. On MacOS you get just the English
locale and the have to do a merry dance installing the langpack and
trying to bully it into the UI language and locale you want, on Ubuntu
you're loosing a fighting battle either way because it forces it to the
locale of you OS. <massive sigh>

A extra step during the first install on ANY OS which asks which
languages the user wants whould be *so* much user friendly. And yes, I
admit it, it would save people like me days of support time no-one is
paying us for (just saying) when normal users get totally confused
during the install. I'm really rather tired of hearing "I selected
language X on the download page but it's now all in English"....

Michael

10/03/2013 07:28, sgrìobh Jonathan Aquilina:
> Jelle and everyone,
>
>   Thinking about this right now the system is flawed in the sense you have
> to download the language packs manually and install them manually, could we
> integrate something into the installer where it will download and
> autoinstall the language packs for everyone that wants them allowing them
> to choose which language they want?


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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

Hi Michael, *,

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Michael Bauer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> do a merry dance installing the langpack and trying to bully it into the UI
> language and locale you want, on Ubuntu you're loosing a fighting battle
> either way because it forces it to the locale of you OS. <massive sigh>

You're making things up here. On all systems, LO will default to the
system's (Operating System's) language if that corresponding language
is installed for LibreOffice.
If you want a different one, go to Tools|Options → Languages and pick
the language.
Same procedure on every OS.

And you're completely missing the point that Jelle made (and that
exclusively applies to the Windows version):
The installer itself is localized and comes up with the language of the OS.

I personally think that this is a great feature, and while a few
immigrants or emmigrants will be presented with a version of the OS
itself they don't understand, it is nothing that should be reverted.

If you cannot change the regional settings of your user account, then
those people should by now heard of
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=13209

I have no insight on hard it would be to add a button "use english"
for the installer - but in any case: File an issue in buzilla, just
discussing it here won't change anything.

ciao
Christian

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Michael Bauer Michael Bauer
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild


10/03/2013 13:10, sgrìobh Christian Lohmaier:
> You're making things up here. On all systems, LO will default to the
> system's (Operating System's) language if that corresponding language
> is installed for LibreOffice.
> If you want a different one, go to Tools|Options → Languages and pick
> the language.
> Same procedure on every OS.
Not really. I can go to a download page and it actually *offers* me a
language selection in the dropdown. However, if I simply choose the
default installation, irrespective of what language I chose, it comes up
in English (or perhaps the default OS language, that's possible but
equally unhelpful if your OS hasn't been localized or if you just want a
different language). Granted, on Windows I do not have to download
separate language packs (the way I have to on MacOS) but it's still a
tortuted process. And I'm afraid you're wrong when it comes to Ubuntu -
there is no way I have found that I can choose a UI other than my OS
language for LO without some hack.

The point is, the whole process of selecting the language the user wants
in LO is really annoying.
> And you're completely missing the point that Jelle made (and that
> exclusively applies to the Windows version):
> The installer itself is localized and comes up with the language of the OS.
I think we both misread him slightly. I admit I kind of missed the bit
about the installer itself but you missed the bit where he complains
that he ends up installing a lot of langpacks and proofing tools he
doesn't want.
> I personally think that this is a great feature, and while a few
> immigrants or emmigrants will be presented with a version of the OS
> itself they don't understand, it is nothing that should be reverted.
>
> If you cannot change the regional settings of your user account, then
> those people should by now heard of
> http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=13209

When have developers of any software actually asked their users (not the
testers who tend to be tech savy) but people like my mum about what they
think of force-locale? You're making a really big assumption here that
people even understand why it happens. I've recommended LO to lots of
people because it's available in our language and when I get back to
them at some point and ask how they're getting on, they tell me they
stopped using it because it came up in English and they couldn't change
the language in the settings.

Sure, it would be nice if users worked on improving their IT skills but
the reality is, they don't on the whole when it comes to anything but
*using* the software. Unless something is very obvious, they won't
figure it. And suggesting they install the Microsoft AppLocale utility
falls under "wishful thinking". Most users don't know what a locale is.
And consequently virtually none will go looking for a utility that
changes something they're not aware of its existence. I'm not the
measure of all things  but I've worked hard to make this easier for the
users in my locale and I'd never heard of it.

Force-locale is the worst l10n related "feature" since the invention of
ASCII. It panders to big languages which have the good fortune of having
localized OS and removes control over one of the few features that users
actually commonly do want to change from the users.

I apologize if this comes over as a rant... it's not meant to be one but
I do feel strongly about this and I feel that a lot of l10n projects are
making blind assumptions about UI language choices that are not in line
with the reality on the ground. And I do feel a bit like Don Quixote and
his windmills most of the time ;)

How about a challenge? How about everyone who things force-locale and
the current way of choosing a UI language ask a relative over the age of
50 to install LO in Gaelic. Without help...

If LO is to appeal to the masses, then we must consider the limitations
of the masses, not tell them they're too dumb to figure that in order to
change the UI language of Firefox on Linux all they have to do is go to
the address bar, type about:config, matchOS and toggle that to FALSE,
type general.useragent.locale and choose the ISO code. I know, Firefox
isn't LO but it's the same AAARGH approach that will fail anyone who
doesn't work with this stuff.

Michael

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

Hi Michael, *;

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Michael Bauer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 10/03/2013 13:10, sgrìobh Christian Lohmaier:
>
>> You're making things up here. On all systems, LO will default to the
>> system's (Operating System's) language if that corresponding language
>> is installed for LibreOffice.
>> If you want a different one, go to Tools|Options → Languages and pick
>> the language.
>> Same procedure on every OS.
> [...]
> way I have to on MacOS) but it's still a tortuted process. And I'm afraid
> you're wrong when it comes to Ubuntu - there is no way I have found that I
> can choose a UI other than my OS language for LO without some hack.

Well, if we talk about LO downloads and the LO installer,etc. I assume
we're talking about LO as provided by the TDF, not by the
distribution. So I'm talking about the linux installation files as you
can download from the www.libreoffice.org website. I have no idea
whether ubuntu does some hacks to its packages that change the
language behaviour - but with vanilla packages changing the UI
langauge does work as expected (go to Tools|Options → Languages, pick
the desired language from the list of installed languages, confirm and
restart LO - done. No magic, no hacks. when you have set it to
"default", you can also change the language by setting appropriate
locale prior to launching it.

>> And you're completely missing the point that Jelle made (and that
>> exclusively applies to the Windows version):
>> The installer itself is localized and comes up with the language of the
>> OS.
>
> I think we both misread him slightly. I admit I kind of missed the bit about
> the installer itself but you missed the bit where he complains that he ends
> up installing a lot of langpacks and proofing tools he doesn't want.

Not "a lot of". Windows installer doesn't install all languages, that
would be insane. But it will always by default install the language
version that matches the version of the OS.
Also the set of proofing tools has been reduced, so that also depends
on the languages chosen.

> When have developers of any software actually asked their users (not the
> testers who tend to be tech savy) but people like my mum about what they
> think of force-locale?

You mom doesn't run Chinese version of Windows when she cannot read Chinese.

> You're making a really big assumption here that
> people even understand why it happens. I've recommended LO to lots of people
> because it's available in our language and when I get back to them at some
> point and ask how they're getting on, they tell me they stopped using it
> because it came up in English and they couldn't change the language in the
> settings.

That again is not the point that startet this thread, as this only
applies to non-windows, where installing a languagepack is a separate
step.

> Sure, it would be nice if users worked on improving their IT skills but the
> reality is, they don't on the whole when it comes to anything but *using*
> the software. Unless something is very obvious, they won't figure it. And
> suggesting they install the Microsoft AppLocale utility falls under "wishful
> thinking". Most users don't know what a locale is.

See above. This doesn't apply to most users. This applies to users
using a version of the Operating system in a language they cannot
read.
I certainly don't think this is a common situation, and that you can
expect from those people involved to encounter the same kind of
problem with a lot of different software packages, not just
LibreOffice. And with those to an extend where they cannot switch the
language in the program itself, but where it is fixed to the OS
locale, thus using such a locale-switching tool is absolutely
necessary.

You're hijacking the thread with your rant agains the split of
language packs, while this one is about only using the OS-locale in
the Windows-installer.
To me these are two completely different problems, after all the
languages are all included in the windows installer, so your point
does not apply.

And regarding your problem that people have to manually pick the
language when the OS is not localized to the desired language: That
again cannot be helped. But when you're using a "minority" Language,
then my personal feel is that such problems are familiar to you, and
that you choose "custom setup" by reflex already.

> Force-locale is the worst l10n related "feature" since the invention of
> ASCII. It panders to big languages which have the good fortune of having
> localized OS and removes control over one of the few features that users
> actually commonly do want to change from the users.

There is no forcing of locale involed, just the selection of the
language that is installed when you just hit "continue" differs. And
that is a good thing, as you cannot install all languages, since that
would waste tons of space, and even more so since that won't help
either. If the OS is not in the desired language, then LO cannot
determine it automatically and you will have to go to the options
anyway.

> And I do feel a bit like Don Quixote and his
> windmills most of the time ;)

Probably. Maybe I just don't get the real problem you got.

While I perfectly understand your rant against the separate
languagepacks for linux and Mac - again: This thread is about
something completely different. And when it comes to the windows
installer, I guess I simply disagree with your view on it.

> How about a challenge? How about everyone who things force-locale and the
> current way of choosing a UI language ask a relative over the age of 50 to
> install LO in Gaelic. Without help...

Well - Windows installer comes up English (or whatever language
windows is in), and I assume people to read the on-sceen text even
when they are 50 or older and using a computer.
If they are using linux, I even more so demand that they read
instructions before blindly typing commands (or have them stick with
their distro's package manager, that - if it doesn't suck - will do
the right thing™)

ciao
Christian

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Michael Bauer Michael Bauer
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

Thanks for the response but I give up. I'm clearly wasting my time (yet
again) trying to point out that these issue are interelated and that
your comfortable reality of a fully localized German or French or
Spanish experience does not match vast swathes of this planet.

Michael

10/03/2013 14:10, sgrìobh Christian Lohmaier:
> Hi Michael, *;


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Jelle Mulder Jelle Mulder
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
Uhm,..

Well the point I'm trying to make is that the installer is completely  
localised. So unless I've done the install many times in another language  
which characters I can read, I don't even know there is a custom install  
as the language that says custom install is unreadable to me. I guess that  
goes for any expat around the world that ends up at the wrong desktop  
environment and probably the odd 10% of all world population that can  
consider themselves immigrants.

If you've ever tried to force a windows version into localisation to your  
taste you might know that it's not all that straightforward. Downloading a  
180MB language pack file over a shaky connection that drops packages like  
dandruff from a stressed head and then finding out that the person  
responsible for installing your windows version downloaded it from the  
local chopstick shop. Telling your boss that you'd like a genuine version  
instead of following the lead of 70% of his peers is not going to make  
sense to them. I guess that people in this forum are a bit unaware of the  
troubles one may run into when trying to install stuff in a developing  
nation with a low morality when it comes to IP theft.

Oh,.. sure,.. I could plug some Linux distro on it and all my trouble  
would be over. However, that would exclude me from communicatng with my  
collegues that run all those nifty malware tools like QQ (some IM) and the  
like. Nor do Linux distro's support Chinese all that well for those that  
cannot read Chinese. It exists, but alas,.. the info is all in Chinese and  
not all of it is in HTML format that I might run through Google Chrome to  
translate it. So Vistualize your win7 environment will set some things  
straight at least, but NOT localisation settings. I'm a system engineer  
for all sake and haven't bothered any more to try set the date display to  
english. Just can't find it and I guess it may have been removed by the  
guys that created this otherwise fairly decent win7 rip.

Now, total locaisation may sound like a smart and elegant thing to do, but  
maybe a default language option button/switch for all those poor buggers  
like me in a non-localised internationally dominant trade language such as  
English might be a really good idea. I installed the English version  
allright, but I have no idea what the options where and just guessing  
right about the common conventions used in button locations made me get  
there. I would however be nice to keep the guesswork out of the equation  
and actually get to understand what you are installing where and why  
instead.

And yeah,.. calling your local support engineer to do the install for you?  
Muahahaha,.. he's got to ask his boss,.. boss,.. boss,... etc... Who  
doesn't understand the issue of wanting to use a ui you can actually  
understand,.. and you get no after some months. All for the sake of a  
friggin installer being uber localised. So tell me... What did I actually  
agree to? I get these scary visions of becoming a human centiOffice  
appendix all the sudden. Did I install some Java Runtime as well at  
default? Oh, cripes...

Come on people,.. if this is the UI/UX department, this issue is right at  
it's place as this is UI/UX at it's purest. The installer UX sucks because  
the UI is monomanic. There should always be more than one road going to  
Rome as Rome is a cosmopolitan place. Sure,.. do as the Romans do,.. but  
you can swear in your native barbaric language at least.

Cheers,

Jelle

P.S.
I speak and read 4 languages fluently, know a bit of 10 others, but the  
43.000 chars of simplified Chinese are beyond me for the coming 6 years or  
so.

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khagaroth khagaroth
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

If you are implying you use a W7 install that's detected as not being
genuine, the you have much bigger problems than badly detected
localization. There are at least 3 ways to permanently and undetectably
activate a pirated W7 system and still pass genuine checks. If you are not
passing, it means two things. First, the one who installed the system is an
idiot, because he can't even steal properly. And second, he used some crack
produced by a third rate script kiddo, and you have a 99% chance your
system is acting as a nice bot slave. Since you are already using a pirated
version, just nuke it, download a clean install ISO of W7 (you can check
it's clean using hashes from MS) and register using a proper and clean
method, like DAZ loader.

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Constantine Mousafiris Constantine Mousafiris
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Version 4.0 Brochure in Greek

I just finished my efforts with the Greek translation of the brochure I
found in the wiki pages
(https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Brochure-lo-4---A4-paper-size--v4.odt)

and I submit it to the list, in case you judge it useful to upload it in
our marketing stuff.

Have a good night (day?? whatever..)  :-)

Constantine

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Christian Lohmaier (klammer) Christian Lohmaier (klammer)
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

In reply to this post by Jelle Mulder
Hi Jelle, *,

On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Jelle Mulder <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [...]
> Well the point I'm trying to make is that the installer is completely
> localised.

Yes, I fully understand. But while I see it is a problem for /you/, I
doubt that this szenario is affecting "the masses".
Even when the language of the OS is not the target language of your
application, one can assume that the person using the OS at least
understands the OS language. Everything else is a corner case.

But then again: I see that having a dropdown or other selection within
the installer to switch both the installer language as the default of
what gets installed to the respective language only as a nice feature.
And to repeat myself:
######
"I have no insight on hard it would be to add a button "use english"
for the installer - but in any case: File an issue in buzilla, just
discussing it here won't change anything.
######

> [...]
> and probably the odd 10% of all world population that can consider
> themselves immigrants.

I disagree here. Why do they use a OS they cannot understand in the
first place? Either they already own a computer, then they should just
keep using that, or they have to buy one, but then they could just buy
a version in the language they understand.

And if you're there to work - how are you supposed to actually do
work, when you cannot understand the OS - and why let people install
you software there? So to me it still is a rare corner-case.

> Oh,.. sure,.. I could plug some Linux distro on it and all my trouble would
> be over. However, that would exclude me from communicatng with my collegues
> that run all those nifty malware tools like QQ (some IM) and the like. Nor
> do Linux distro's support Chinese all that well for those that cannot read
> Chinese. It exists, but alas,.. the info is all in Chinese and not all of it
> is in HTML format that I might run through Google Chrome to translate it.

I can't follow you on the Linux point here. If you don't understand
any chinese, why install chinese linux? If you cannot read chinese,
how would you write chinese? (I can only assume you mean how to
install a IME to write chinese is not documented in "non-chinese"
properly - but then again - chicken and egg problem - just install
ibus with a chinese IME and you're done - the times where installing
an IME was painfull are long over, thanks to all Linux-distros using
UTF-8 by default now.

> [-..]
> Come on people,.. if this is the UI/UX department, this issue is right at
> it's place as this is UI/UX at it's purest.

Sorry, but you wrote to the l10n list - at least that is what I have
been replying to..

File a bug an indeed UX would be the correct place to lay out what it
should offer.

ciao
Christian

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Constantine Mousafiris Constantine Mousafiris
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Version 4.0 Brochure in Greek

In reply to this post by Constantine Mousafiris
On 10/03/2013 11:45 μμ, Kostas Mousafiris wrote:

> I just finished my efforts with the Greek translation of the brochure I
> found in the wiki pages
> (https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Brochure-lo-4---A4-paper-size--v4.odt)
>
> and I submit it to the list, in case you judge it useful to upload it in
> our marketing stuff.
>
> Have a good night (day?? whatever..)  :-)
>
> Constantine
>
Hmmm....I guess I should have included the download link to the .odt
file with the Greek translation.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20447655/GreekLUG/%CE%94%CE%B9%CE%AC%CF%86%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%82%20%CE%9C%CE%B5%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%86%CF%81%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%82/LibreOffice/LibO%20pamphlets/LibOPamphlet-feb_11-a4.odt

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Jānis Jānis
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

In reply to this post by Christian Lohmaier (klammer)

Citēts Christian Lohmaier <[hidden email]>
Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:23:04 +0100:

> Even when the language of the OS is not the target language of your
> application, one can assume that the person using the OS at least
> understands the OS language. Everything else is a corner case.

You are absolutely wrong - I can tell that from my "local" experience  
- the greatest part (eldest) of Latvians has no other language  
knowledge than Latvian and for some part - also Russian (other  
languages - marginal case). As the Windows started to speak  
comprehensible Latvian just recently. so, I wanted to tell that people  
speaking "smaller" languages use graphical representation of commands  
- just like children do - "press this icon, then, from the third menu  
choose 7th line and you done!"

This, according to my experience, is "User Vulgaris".

Janis
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Mihovil Stanic Mihovil Stanic
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

+1
Adding default install and UI language on to install screen would be
good usability enhancement.


Dana 11.3.2013. 7:43, Jānis je napisao:

>
> Citēts Christian Lohmaier <[hidden email]>
> Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:23:04 +0100:
>
>> Even when the language of the OS is not the target language of your
>> application, one can assume that the person using the OS at least
>> understands the OS language. Everything else is a corner case.
>
> You are absolutely wrong - I can tell that from my "local" experience
> - the greatest part (eldest) of Latvians has no other language
> knowledge than Latvian and for some part - also Russian (other
> languages - marginal case). As the Windows started to speak
> comprehensible Latvian just recently. so, I wanted to tell that people
> speaking "smaller" languages use graphical representation of commands
> - just like children do - "press this icon, then, from the third menu
> choose 7th line and you done!"
>
> This, according to my experience, is "User Vulgaris".
>
> Janis


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Sveinn í Felli Sveinn í Felli
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

In reply to this post by Jelle Mulder
Þann sun 10.mar 2013 22:23, skrifaði Christian Lohmaier:

> Hi Jelle, *,
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Jelle Mulder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> [...]
>> Well the point I'm trying to make is that the installer is completely
>> localised.
>
> Yes, I fully understand. But while I see it is a problem for /you/, I
> doubt that this szenario is affecting "the masses".
> Even when the language of the OS is not the target language of your
> application, one can assume that the person using the OS at least
> understands the OS language. Everything else is a corner case.
>

Well, for many smaller languages there may not be any
Windows UI-localisation available or just not installed; yet
the locale might be correctly defined:
--> UI = english (fallback language) and the LO-installer
language = XX-locale (if translations exist).
Also there is a question of keyboard layout.

A long time ago we had an example of a french native working
in Moscow with a non-cyrilic keyboard, doing work in
[ukranian] and other languages (if I recall correctly),
wanting to switch LibreOffice-UI according to the language
she was working on at the moment. Things can be complicated.

> But then again: I see that having a dropdown or other selection within
> the installer to switch both the installer language as the default of
> what gets installed to the respective language only as a nice feature.
> And to repeat myself:
> ######
> "I have no insight on hard it would be to add a button "use english"
> for the installer - but in any case: File an issue in buzilla, just
> discussing it here won't change anything.
> ######
>

Even Linux-distro-installers like Anaconda start with a
simple section; "Please choose a language to use during
installation", many Windows packages do too (as I recall).
The Linux-installers also ask for keyboard layout.
Just polite in my opinion.

But I agree; this is more of a bugzilla request. The UI/UX
might have an opinion on how/where to define those choices,
but then maybe this is depending on which installer software
is used to produce the MSI-packages?

>> [...]
>> and probably the odd 10% of all world population that can consider
>> themselves immigrants.
>
> I disagree here. Why do they use a OS they cannot understand in the
> first place? Either they already own a computer, then they should just
> keep using that, or they have to buy one, but then they could just buy
> a version in the language they understand.
>
The user UI-language may be in a certain language, but to
install packages you'd have to drop into admin-mode, which
is normally in system locale and language. Right?

Best regards,

Sveinn í Felli

> And if you're there to work - how are you supposed to actually do
> work, when you cannot understand the OS - and why let people install
> you software there? So to me it still is a rare corner-case.
>
>> Oh,.. sure,.. I could plug some Linux distro on it and all my trouble would
>> be over. However, that would exclude me from communicatng with my collegues
>> that run all those nifty malware tools like QQ (some IM) and the like. Nor
>> do Linux distro's support Chinese all that well for those that cannot read
>> Chinese. It exists, but alas,.. the info is all in Chinese and not all of it
>> is in HTML format that I might run through Google Chrome to translate it.
>
> I can't follow you on the Linux point here. If you don't understand
> any chinese, why install chinese linux? If you cannot read chinese,
> how would you write chinese? (I can only assume you mean how to
> install a IME to write chinese is not documented in "non-chinese"
> properly - but then again - chicken and egg problem - just install
> ibus with a chinese IME and you're done - the times where installing
> an IME was painfull are long over, thanks to all Linux-distros using
> UTF-8 by default now.
>
>> [-..]
>> Come on people,.. if this is the UI/UX department, this issue is right at
>> it's place as this is UI/UX at it's purest.
>
> Sorry, but you wrote to the l10n list - at least that is what I have
> been replying to..
>
> File a bug an indeed UX would be the correct place to lay out what it
> should offer.
>
> ciao
> Christian
>


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Andras Timar Andras Timar
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

In reply to this post by Jelle Mulder
Hi,

A few facts about Windows installer of LibreOffice:
It is a single MSI file - on purpose. It is simpler and more useful
that old solution with preinstaller, setup.exe, several transforms
etc. MSI format has some limitations. It is not an executable, it is a
database. Windows itself contains the installer software, which can
open and install software from MSI installation databases.

The UI language of the Windows installer depends on the setting of
Contol Panel - Regional and Language - Format (on Windows 7). It does
not depend on UI language of Windows. For example, when I have an
English Windows 7 with Latvian format set up, then I will have Latvian
LibreOffice installer, which installs English and Latvian LibreOffice
UI. Unfortunately the same is not true for Scottish Gaelic. When I set
up Scottish Gaelic format, the installer remains in English. I don't
know why this happens. Maybe it is a bug in Windows itself. Or
Scottish Gaelic is not as developed locale as Latvian or others. I can
force Scottish Gaelic UI of the installer, msiexec /i
LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084. But even in this
case I won't have Scottish Gaelic UI automatically selected for
installation. I have to use the msiexec /i
LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084 UI_LANGS=en_GB,gd
command, to install with English (Great-Britain) and Scottish Gaelic
UI, of msiexec /i LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084
UI_LANGS=gd for Scottish Gaelic only.

It is not possible to include a language selector UI in the MSI
database. The language of the MSI database is determined by Windows
before the first dialog comes up. We could use a setup.exe maybe. But
then we would not have a single file MSI installer any more.

Best regards,
Andras

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Joan Montané Joan Montané
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

2013/3/11 Andras Timar <[hidden email]>

>
> It is not possible to include a language selector UI in the MSI
> database. The language of the MSI database is determined by Windows
> before the first dialog comes up. We could use a setup.exe maybe. But
> then we would not have a single file MSI installer any more.
>
>
Hi,

first, I'm not a developer, so maybe I will writte something wrong.

I like the idea of include a language selector UI.

May be a single setup.exe can be done, with the current msi embeded in it.
So, such setup only shows the UI selector, extract current msi and calls it
accordint language UI selected. End, :)

My 5 ct.

Joan Montané

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Yaron Shahrabani Yaron Shahrabani
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

We can always switch to NSIS which is truly open source.

Yaron Shahrabani

<Hebrew translator>



On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Joan Montané <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2013/3/11 Andras Timar <[hidden email]>
>
> >
> > It is not possible to include a language selector UI in the MSI
> > database. The language of the MSI database is determined by Windows
> > before the first dialog comes up. We could use a setup.exe maybe. But
> > then we would not have a single file MSI installer any more.
> >
> >
> Hi,
>
> first, I'm not a developer, so maybe I will writte something wrong.
>
> I like the idea of include a language selector UI.
>
> May be a single setup.exe can be done, with the current msi embeded in it.
> So, such setup only shows the UI selector, extract current msi and calls it
> accordint language UI selected. End, :)
>
> My 5 ct.
>
> Joan Montané
>
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Michael Bauer Michael Bauer
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

In reply to this post by Andras Timar
This reminds me a bit of Android actually. I use an app called custom
locale to get around the frustrating force-locale issue in order to
force various apps to show up in Gaelic but that aside, it has a bizarre
impact on the weather app. It cause the app to fluctuare between English
and Gaelic city/town names. Some days I get "Glasgow", some days I get
"Glaschu" - even though AFAIK the app hasn't been localized (just the
standard weather app that comes with my phone). There seems to be no
pattern to it. I suspect it, as the behaviour you described, is probably
dependent on more than one factor (i.e. beyond just telling the system
that it's locale xx-YY). Which is part of what makes this so frustrating.

There's of course also the scenario of a locale you cannot select on any
OS but which has a LO localisation. Like Oromo, Kashmiri or Bodo which I
cannot find in the locales on offer in Windows 7 but which have LO
localizations.

Michael

11/03/2013 21:37, sgrìobh Andras Timar:

> know why this happens. Maybe it is a bug in Windows itself. Or
> Scottish Gaelic is not as developed locale as Latvian or others. I can
> force Scottish Gaelic UI of the installer, msiexec /i
> LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084. But even in this
> case I won't have Scottish Gaelic UI automatically selected for
> installation. I have to use the msiexec /i
> LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084 UI_LANGS=en_GB,gd
> command, to install with English (Great-Britain) and Scottish Gaelic
> UI, of msiexec /i LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084
> UI_LANGS=gd for Scottish Gaelic only.

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Chris Leonard Chris Leonard
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild

In reply to this post by Yaron Shahrabani
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Yaron Shahrabani <[hidden email]> wrote:
> We can always switch to NSIS which is truly open source.
>
> Yaron Shahrabani

Well, I'd recommend Unicode NSIS instead of traditional NSIS.

Unicode NSIS
http://www.scratchpaper.com/

AbiWord switched to Unicode NSIS to allow for a greater range of
language representations.

It might be necessary to host a few additional PO files (then convert
them to properly formatted nlf and nsh files for upstreaming) if your
language is not already complete in Unicode NSIS.  I would be happy to
share the POT files I created manually for that purpose, which I host
only for languages where they are needed.  It is not a lot of strings,
you've already got many of them complete as your installer appears to
be derived from NSIS.

http://translate.sugarlabs.org/projects/AbiWord/

cjl
Sugar Labs Translation Team Coordinator

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