[libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck tooltips

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jphilipz jphilipz
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[libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck tooltips

Hi All,

I came across the tooltip 'Nonprinting Characters' in Writer and i think
it should be changes to 'Non-printing Characters' or 'Non-printable
Characters', as nonprinting is not a valid english word, even in
libreoffice's spellcheck. :)

Also came across the tooltip 'AutoSpellcheck' and think it should be
changed to 'Auto Spellcheck' or 'Automatic Spellcheck'.

I'm mentioning this in the mailing list as i didnt see any means to make
suggestions for english (US) in the translation website.

--
Regards,
Jay Philips


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anne-ology anne-ology
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck tooltips

       Well done.



From: Jay Philips <[hidden email]>
Date: Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM
Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck
tooltips
To: LibreOffice-l10n <[hidden email]>


Hi All,

I came across the tooltip 'Nonprinting Characters' in Writer and i think
it should be changes to 'Non-printing Characters' or 'Non-printable
Characters', as nonprinting is not a valid english word, even in
libreoffice's spellcheck. :)

Also came across the tooltip 'AutoSpellcheck' and think it should be
changed to 'Auto Spellcheck' or 'Automatic Spellcheck'.

I'm mentioning this in the mailing list as i didnt see any means to make
suggestions for english (US) in the translation website.

--
Regards,
Jay Philips

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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck tooltips

Hi :)
+1
Nice catch!

I guess we often don't notice these things because they have become part of
our "technical language".  However, i agree that people who don't spend all
day using these tools probably think it looks clunky and it's probably
difficult to translate into some languages, unless people have assumed it
was already the way you suggest.  (Btw I think that is one reason that MTs
probably wont catch-up with human translators.  They can be a good tool
sometimes but too often they get it hilariously wrong where a human can be
more creative)
Regards form
Tom :)





On 24 June 2014 01:50, anne-ology <[hidden email]> wrote:

>        Well done.
>
>
>
> From: Jay Philips <[hidden email]>
> Date: Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM
> Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck
> tooltips
> To: LibreOffice-l10n <[hidden email]>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I came across the tooltip 'Nonprinting Characters' in Writer and i think
> it should be changes to 'Non-printing Characters' or 'Non-printable
> Characters', as nonprinting is not a valid english word, even in
> libreoffice's spellcheck. :)
>
> Also came across the tooltip 'AutoSpellcheck' and think it should be
> changed to 'Auto Spellcheck' or 'Automatic Spellcheck'.
>
> I'm mentioning this in the mailing list as i didnt see any means to make
> suggestions for english (US) in the translation website.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Jay Philips
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

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Martin Srebotnjak Martin Srebotnjak
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck tooltips

In reply to this post by anne-ology
Hi,

here are my 2 cents regarding the AutoSpellcheck name.

Well, other functions already have the "AutoSomething" naming style in
OOo/LO (see LO feature/function/variable names like AutoCaption,
AutoFormat, AutoCorrect, Autofit, Autoclose, AutoRecovery, AutoFilter,
AutoFill, AutoRefresh, AutoCalculate, AutoInput, AutoOutline, AutoText,
AutoNumber, AutoShapes, AutoVertical, AutoHorizontal, AutoUpdate,
AutoAbstract), so changing just one to "Auto Something" does not address
the issue. Also, grammatically correct does not apply to
"trademarked"/authentically named functions (and "AutoSpellcheck" does
sound like it), so if LO/AOO/OOo defines something as "AutoSomething", then
the grammatical correctness does not apply, it is called the way that
authors name a special feature (as if someone would suggest to Apple that
"iMac" is not grammatically correct, so it should rename "iMac" to "i-Mac"
- and Apple would do it in the middle of a release of new iMacs). It is
hard to change a "trademarked" feature name after users have been using it
for a decade, have made it their own or manuals have been printed about it
etc. (unless a feature name gets politically incorrect etc.).

Also, changing such English strings with all of their appearances in the LO
po files makes about 133 l10n teams translating those strings in their
native language again (so if "AutoSomething"'s appear in 300 strings, that
means translators have to re-translate 36.000 maybe already correctly
translated strings).

Really worth the effort?

Lp, m.


2014-06-24 2:50 GMT+02:00 anne-ology <[hidden email]>:

>        Well done.
>
>
>
> From: Jay Philips <[hidden email]>
> Date: Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM
> Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck
> tooltips
> To: LibreOffice-l10n <[hidden email]>
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I came across the tooltip 'Nonprinting Characters' in Writer and i think
> it should be changes to 'Non-printing Characters' or 'Non-printable
> Characters', as nonprinting is not a valid english word, even in
> libreoffice's spellcheck. :)
>
> Also came across the tooltip 'AutoSpellcheck' and think it should be
> changed to 'Auto Spellcheck' or 'Automatic Spellcheck'.
>
> I'm mentioning this in the mailing list as i didnt see any means to make
> suggestions for english (US) in the translation website.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Jay Philips
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

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jphilipz jphilipz
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck tooltips

In reply to this post by TomD
Hi Tom,

Thanks. I've opened a bug about that issue here <
https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=80490 > for those
who want to comment more about it.

I think all the tooltips need to be looked over with fresh eyes and with
the intention that it should be easily understandable to new users. The
two i previously noticed were just because of the bug triaging i'm doing
for the QA team, but looking over more of them now, i see many can be
improved on. Here are some more examples for the standard toolbar.

Edit File => Edit Mode, Enable/Disable Edit Mode, ToggleEdit Mode,
Toggle Edit Mode & Toggle Read Mode [tooltip changes according to state]
Export Directly as PDF => Directly Export as PDF
Print File Directly (HP Laser Jet) => Directly Print to HP Laser Jet,
Directly Print to (HP Laser Jet)
Page Preview => Print Preview Mode, Enable/Disable Print Preview Mode
[the icon is a printer and a magnifying glass]
Spelling and Grammar => Check Spelling and Grammar, Run Spelling and
Grammar Check
Hyperlink => Insert/Edit Hyperlink
Table => Insert Table
Show Draw Functions => Show/Hide Drawing Toolbar, Toggle ...
Navigator => Navigator Dialog, Show/Hide Navigator Dialog, Toogle ...
Gallery => Image Gallery, Show/Hide Image Gallery, Toggle ...

Regards,
Jay Philips

On 06/24/2014 03:33 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

> Hi :)
> +1
> Nice catch!
>
> I guess we often don't notice these things because they have become
> part of our "technical language".  However, i agree that people who
> don't spend all day using these tools probably think it looks clunky
> and it's probably difficult to translate into some languages, unless
> people have assumed it was already the way you suggest.  (Btw I think
> that is one reason that MTs probably wont catch-up with human
> translators.  They can be a good tool sometimes but too often they get
> it hilariously wrong where a human can be more creative)
> Regards form
> Tom :)
>
>
>  
>
>
> On 24 June 2014 01:50, anne-ology <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>            Well done.
>
>
>
>     From: Jay Philips <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Date: Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM
>     Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck
>     tooltips
>     To: LibreOffice-l10n <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>
>     Hi All,
>
>     I came across the tooltip 'Nonprinting Characters' in Writer and i
>     think
>     it should be changes to 'Non-printing Characters' or 'Non-printable
>     Characters', as nonprinting is not a valid english word, even in
>     libreoffice's spellcheck. :)
>
>     Also came across the tooltip 'AutoSpellcheck' and think it should be
>     changed to 'Auto Spellcheck' or 'Automatic Spellcheck'.
>
>     I'm mentioning this in the mailing list as i didnt see any means
>     to make
>     suggestions for english (US) in the translation website.
>
>     --
>     Regards,
>     Jay Philips
>
>     --
>     To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>     <mailto:l10n%[hidden email]>
>     Problems?
>     http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>     Posting guidelines + more:
>     http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>     List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/
>     All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and
>     cannot be deleted
>
>


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jphilipz jphilipz
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck tooltips

In reply to this post by Martin Srebotnjak
Hi Martin,

I dont think comparing a brand and CamelCased words is a valid
comparison, because brands/trademarks arent translated <
http://euroiphonenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/iphone-advert-in-china.jpg
>, < http://www.gizchina.com/wp-content/uploads/images/1.jpeg >, <
http://ar.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/AR/_resampled/resizedimage400300-libreoffice4.png
>. Also many of these "AutoSomething" names are also available in other
software like Microsoft Office. I'm not suggesting to change what the
function is referred to elsewhere in the software, i'm suggestion that
toolbar tooltips be meaningful word/phrases explaining what each button
does, because that is the purpose of tooltips. MSO even expands on its
tooltips to include a title, description and image <
http://instantefficiency.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/clip_image0021.jpg
>. Also these camelcased words are already being translated to their
non-camelcase forms. In arabic, the 'AutoSpellcheck' string is
translated as 'Automatic Spell Check', so no additional translation
would be needed in this case. :)

Regards,
Jay Philips

On 06/25/2014 12:54 AM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

> Hi,
>
> here are my 2 cents regarding the AutoSpellcheck name.
>
> Well, other functions already have the "AutoSomething" naming style in
> OOo/LO (see LO feature/function/variable names like AutoCaption,
> AutoFormat, AutoCorrect, Autofit, Autoclose, AutoRecovery, AutoFilter,
> AutoFill, AutoRefresh, AutoCalculate, AutoInput, AutoOutline,
> AutoText, AutoNumber, AutoShapes, AutoVertical, AutoHorizontal,
> AutoUpdate, AutoAbstract), so changing just one to "Auto Something"
> does not address the issue. Also, grammatically correct does not apply
> to "trademarked"/authentically named functions (and "AutoSpellcheck"
> does sound like it), so if LO/AOO/OOo defines something as
> "AutoSomething", then the grammatical correctness does not apply, it
> is called the way that authors name a special feature (as if someone
> would suggest to Apple that "iMac" is not grammatically correct, so it
> should rename "iMac" to "i-Mac" - and Apple would do it in the middle
> of a release of new iMacs). It is hard to change a "trademarked"
> feature name after users have been using it for a decade, have made it
> their own or manuals have been printed about it etc. (unless a feature
> name gets politically incorrect etc.).
>
> Also, changing such English strings with all of their appearances in
> the LO po files makes about 133 l10n teams translating those strings
> in their native language again (so if "AutoSomething"'s appear in 300
> strings, that means translators have to re-translate 36.000 maybe
> already correctly translated strings).
>
> Really worth the effort?
>
> Lp, m.
>
>
> 2014-06-24 2:50 GMT+02:00 anne-ology <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>            Well done.
>
>
>
>     From: Jay Philips <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     Date: Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM
>     Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck
>     tooltips
>     To: LibreOffice-l10n <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>
>
>     Hi All,
>
>     I came across the tooltip 'Nonprinting Characters' in Writer and i
>     think
>     it should be changes to 'Non-printing Characters' or 'Non-printable
>     Characters', as nonprinting is not a valid english word, even in
>     libreoffice's spellcheck. :)
>
>     Also came across the tooltip 'AutoSpellcheck' and think it should be
>     changed to 'Auto Spellcheck' or 'Automatic Spellcheck'.
>
>     I'm mentioning this in the mailing list as i didnt see any means
>     to make
>     suggestions for english (US) in the translation website.
>
>     --
>     Regards,
>     Jay Philips
>
>     --
>     To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>     <mailto:l10n%[hidden email]>
>     Problems?
>     http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>     Posting guidelines + more:
>     http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>     List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/
>     All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and
>     cannot be deleted
>
>


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Martin Srebotnjak Martin Srebotnjak
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck tooltips

Hi, Jay,

I guess you do not know how the l10n process goes and what does a change of
string mean. The single change you propose would trigger "fuzzy" strings in
133 languages and 133 translators would have to check what got changed.
Even those who already got it translated like you want them to translate it.

Lp, m.


2014-06-25 2:48 GMT+02:00 Jay Philips <[hidden email]>:

>  Hi Martin,
>
> I dont think comparing a brand and CamelCased words is a valid comparison,
> because brands/trademarks arent translated <
> http://euroiphonenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/iphone-advert-in-china.jpg
> >
> <http://euroiphonenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/iphone-advert-in-china.jpg>,
> < http://www.gizchina.com/wp-content/uploads/images/1.jpeg >
> <http://www.gizchina.com/wp-content/uploads/images/1.jpeg>, <
> http://ar.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/AR/_resampled/resizedimage400300-libreoffice4.png
> >
> <http://ar.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/AR/_resampled/resizedimage400300-libreoffice4.png>.
> Also many of these "AutoSomething" names are also available in other
> software like Microsoft Office. I'm not suggesting to change what the
> function is referred to elsewhere in the software, i'm suggestion that
> toolbar tooltips be meaningful word/phrases explaining what each button
> does, because that is the purpose of tooltips. MSO even expands on its
> tooltips to include a title, description and image <
> http://instantefficiency.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/clip_image0021.jpg >
> <http://instantefficiency.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/clip_image0021.jpg>.
> Also these camelcased words are already being translated to their
> non-camelcase forms. In arabic, the 'AutoSpellcheck' string is translated
> as 'Automatic Spell Check', so no additional translation would be needed in
> this case. :)
>
> Regards,
> Jay Philips
>
> On 06/25/2014 12:54 AM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:
>
>  Hi,
>
> here are my 2 cents regarding the AutoSpellcheck name.
>
> Well, other functions already have the "AutoSomething" naming style in
> OOo/LO (see LO feature/function/variable names like AutoCaption,
> AutoFormat, AutoCorrect, Autofit, Autoclose, AutoRecovery, AutoFilter,
> AutoFill, AutoRefresh, AutoCalculate, AutoInput, AutoOutline, AutoText,
> AutoNumber, AutoShapes, AutoVertical, AutoHorizontal, AutoUpdate,
> AutoAbstract), so changing just one to "Auto Something" does not address
> the issue. Also, grammatically correct does not apply to
> "trademarked"/authentically named functions (and "AutoSpellcheck" does
> sound like it), so if LO/AOO/OOo defines something as "AutoSomething", then
> the grammatical correctness does not apply, it is called the way that
> authors name a special feature (as if someone would suggest to Apple that
> "iMac" is not grammatically correct, so it should rename "iMac" to "i-Mac"
> - and Apple would do it in the middle of a release of new iMacs). It is
> hard to change a "trademarked" feature name after users have been using it
> for a decade, have made it their own or manuals have been printed about it
> etc. (unless a feature name gets politically incorrect etc.).
>
>  Also, changing such English strings with all of their appearances in the
> LO po files makes about 133 l10n teams translating those strings in their
> native language again (so if "AutoSomething"'s appear in 300 strings, that
> means translators have to re-translate 36.000 maybe already correctly
> translated strings).
>
> Really worth the effort?
>
>  Lp, m.
>
>
> 2014-06-24 2:50 GMT+02:00 anne-ology <[hidden email]>:
>
>>        Well done.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jay Philips <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM
>> Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck
>> tooltips
>> To: LibreOffice-l10n <[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I came across the tooltip 'Nonprinting Characters' in Writer and i think
>> it should be changes to 'Non-printing Characters' or 'Non-printable
>> Characters', as nonprinting is not a valid english word, even in
>> libreoffice's spellcheck. :)
>>
>> Also came across the tooltip 'AutoSpellcheck' and think it should be
>> changed to 'Auto Spellcheck' or 'Automatic Spellcheck'.
>>
>> I'm mentioning this in the mailing list as i didnt see any means to make
>> suggestions for english (US) in the translation website.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Jay Philips
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>> Problems?
>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>
>
>
>

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Mihovil Stanic Mihovil Stanic
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck tooltips

That's true for any string change. It doesn't mean we shouldn't change
incorrect strings, or improve it.
In croatian, most of those SomethingSomething strings are translated
separately, like Jay said.

Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 25.6.2014 10:17, Martin Srebotnjak je napisao:

> Hi, Jay,
>
> I guess you do not know how the l10n process goes and what does a change of
> string mean. The single change you propose would trigger "fuzzy" strings in
> 133 languages and 133 translators would have to check what got changed.
> Even those who already got it translated like you want them to translate it.
>
> Lp, m.
>
>
> 2014-06-25 2:48 GMT+02:00 Jay Philips <[hidden email]>:
>
>>   Hi Martin,
>>
>> I dont think comparing a brand and CamelCased words is a valid comparison,
>> because brands/trademarks arent translated <
>> http://euroiphonenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/iphone-advert-in-china.jpg
>> <http://euroiphonenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/iphone-advert-in-china.jpg>,
>> < http://www.gizchina.com/wp-content/uploads/images/1.jpeg >
>> <http://www.gizchina.com/wp-content/uploads/images/1.jpeg>, <
>> http://ar.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/AR/_resampled/resizedimage400300-libreoffice4.png
>> <http://ar.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/AR/_resampled/resizedimage400300-libreoffice4.png>.
>> Also many of these "AutoSomething" names are also available in other
>> software like Microsoft Office. I'm not suggesting to change what the
>> function is referred to elsewhere in the software, i'm suggestion that
>> toolbar tooltips be meaningful word/phrases explaining what each button
>> does, because that is the purpose of tooltips. MSO even expands on its
>> tooltips to include a title, description and image <
>> http://instantefficiency.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/clip_image0021.jpg >
>> <http://instantefficiency.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/clip_image0021.jpg>.
>> Also these camelcased words are already being translated to their
>> non-camelcase forms. In arabic, the 'AutoSpellcheck' string is translated
>> as 'Automatic Spell Check', so no additional translation would be needed in
>> this case. :)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jay Philips
>>
>> On 06/25/2014 12:54 AM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:
>>
>>   Hi,
>>
>> here are my 2 cents regarding the AutoSpellcheck name.
>>
>> Well, other functions already have the "AutoSomething" naming style in
>> OOo/LO (see LO feature/function/variable names like AutoCaption,
>> AutoFormat, AutoCorrect, Autofit, Autoclose, AutoRecovery, AutoFilter,
>> AutoFill, AutoRefresh, AutoCalculate, AutoInput, AutoOutline, AutoText,
>> AutoNumber, AutoShapes, AutoVertical, AutoHorizontal, AutoUpdate,
>> AutoAbstract), so changing just one to "Auto Something" does not address
>> the issue. Also, grammatically correct does not apply to
>> "trademarked"/authentically named functions (and "AutoSpellcheck" does
>> sound like it), so if LO/AOO/OOo defines something as "AutoSomething", then
>> the grammatical correctness does not apply, it is called the way that
>> authors name a special feature (as if someone would suggest to Apple that
>> "iMac" is not grammatically correct, so it should rename "iMac" to "i-Mac"
>> - and Apple would do it in the middle of a release of new iMacs). It is
>> hard to change a "trademarked" feature name after users have been using it
>> for a decade, have made it their own or manuals have been printed about it
>> etc. (unless a feature name gets politically incorrect etc.).
>>
>>   Also, changing such English strings with all of their appearances in the
>> LO po files makes about 133 l10n teams translating those strings in their
>> native language again (so if "AutoSomething"'s appear in 300 strings, that
>> means translators have to re-translate 36.000 maybe already correctly
>> translated strings).
>>
>> Really worth the effort?
>>
>>   Lp, m.
>>
>>
>> 2014-06-24 2:50 GMT+02:00 anne-ology <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>>         Well done.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Jay Philips <[hidden email]>
>>> Date: Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:37 AM
>>> Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Nonprinting Characters and AutoSpellcheck
>>> tooltips
>>> To: LibreOffice-l10n <[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I came across the tooltip 'Nonprinting Characters' in Writer and i think
>>> it should be changes to 'Non-printing Characters' or 'Non-printable
>>> Characters', as nonprinting is not a valid english word, even in
>>> libreoffice's spellcheck. :)
>>>
>>> Also came across the tooltip 'AutoSpellcheck' and think it should be
>>> changed to 'Auto Spellcheck' or 'Automatic Spellcheck'.
>>>
>>> I'm mentioning this in the mailing list as i didnt see any means to make
>>> suggestions for english (US) in the translation website.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>> Jay Philips
>>>
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>>
>>


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