[libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

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Mihovil Stanic Mihovil Stanic
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[libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

Just wanted to point out that descriptions in formula fileds are very vague.
For example in a lot of formulas you will find field "Basis" with
description "The basis".
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hr/libo_ui/scaddins/source/analysis.po/translate/#unit=29745859

Someone who tries to use that formula for first time will have a hard
time finding out what does that field do.
I'm re-translating all formulas since some of them were totally off so I
found out what that fielddoes and increased number of words in translation.
Good english description should look something like this: "Basis for
determining number of days in a year".

There are a lot of other strings which are very vague and need better
description.
If someone will act on it, I can report strings I find and suggest
better description. But since noone from LO reacted on last 2 reports
I'm guessing this isn't interesting.

Best regards,
Mihovil

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Sérgio Marques Sérgio Marques
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

I´m must say that I totally agreed with you. My sentences where all
rewritten based in Excel descriptions.

I think that someone can handle them. Can´t talk by them but for 4.1
release there were a lot of sentences corrected after reports so I guess
this could also be the case.

Regards




2013/6/28 Mihovil Stanic <[hidden email]>

> Just wanted to point out that descriptions in formula fileds are very
> vague.
> For example in a lot of formulas you will find field "Basis" with
> description "The basis".
> https://translations.**documentfoundation.org/hr/**
> libo_ui/scaddins/source/**analysis.po/translate/#unit=**29745859<https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hr/libo_ui/scaddins/source/analysis.po/translate/#unit=29745859>
>
> Someone who tries to use that formula for first time will have a hard time
> finding out what does that field do.
> I'm re-translating all formulas since some of them were totally off so I
> found out what that fielddoes and increased number of words in translation.
> Good english description should look something like this: "Basis for
> determining number of days in a year".
>
> There are a lot of other strings which are very vague and need better
> description.
> If someone will act on it, I can report strings I find and suggest better
> description. But since noone from LO reacted on last 2 reports I'm guessing
> this isn't interesting.
>
> Best regards,
> Mihovil
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscribe@global.**libreoffice.org<l10n%[hidden email]>
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Sérgio Marques Sérgio Marques
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

In reply to this post by Mihovil Stanic
Many strings are badly formed but many of those were written in OpenOffice
era.

Several of them are even incorrect according with ODF formula like the ones
You stated before.

This could lead to corporate entities not adopting Libreoffice as main
office app.

Of course translators can always change strings not respecting the original
ones but many of entities tend to use English language due to
localization errors. I do this in Android system. In this case all I can
say is that sometimes translations are better than original strings.

Regards

2013/6/28 Mihovil Stanic <[hidden email]>

> Just wanted to point out that descriptions in formula fileds are very
> vague.
> For example in a lot of formulas you will find field "Basis" with
> description "The basis".
> https://translations.**documentfoundation.org/hr/**
> libo_ui/scaddins/source/**analysis.po/translate/#unit=**29745859<https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hr/libo_ui/scaddins/source/analysis.po/translate/#unit=29745859>
>
> Someone who tries to use that formula for first time will have a hard time
> finding out what does that field do.
> I'm re-translating all formulas since some of them were totally off so I
> found out what that fielddoes and increased number of words in translation.
> Good english description should look something like this: "Basis for
> determining number of days in a year".
>
> There are a lot of other strings which are very vague and need better
> description.
> If someone will act on it, I can report strings I find and suggest better
> description. But since noone from LO reacted on last 2 reports I'm guessing
> this isn't interesting.
>
> Best regards,
> Mihovil
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscribe@global.**libreoffice.org<l10n%[hidden email]>
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> deleted
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>


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Andras Timar Andras Timar
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

In reply to this post by Mihovil Stanic
On 2013.06.28. 12:20, Mihovil Stanic wrote:
>
> There are a lot of other strings which are very vague and need better
> description.
> If someone will act on it, I can report strings I find and suggest
> better description. But since noone from LO reacted on last 2 reports
> I'm guessing this isn't interesting.
Heh, reaction and fix within 24 hours is not that bad, is it? ;-)
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=core.git;a=commit;h=7547804ff28d9adcfc5a9a0a84b88de13bb8cc15
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=core.git;a=commit;h=d4f92f1a1dae7c89fb9e9e46080b344b99634e24
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=help.git;a=commit;h=e2321b4d8fd5c889e817efdce243d8255f9e167a
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=help.git;a=commit;h=12227e8292bb583346c7fca808ddb78fde0f5011

So, please keep your bug reports coming. Can you please file them to
bugzilla, so they don't get lost? Many thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Andras


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Mihovil Stanic Mihovil Stanic
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

Thanks for quick reactions. :)

I corrected all "The basis" strings in my translation, you can see here
which are those strings:
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hr/libo_ui/scaddins/source/translate.html#search=Osnovica%20za%20broja%20dana%20u%20godini&sfields=source,target

Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 28.6.2013. 12:50, Andras Timar je napisao:

> On 2013.06.28. 12:20, Mihovil Stanic wrote:
>> There are a lot of other strings which are very vague and need better
>> description.
>> If someone will act on it, I can report strings I find and suggest
>> better description. But since noone from LO reacted on last 2 reports
>> I'm guessing this isn't interesting.
> Heh, reaction and fix within 24 hours is not that bad, is it? ;-)
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=core.git;a=commit;h=7547804ff28d9adcfc5a9a0a84b88de13bb8cc15
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=core.git;a=commit;h=d4f92f1a1dae7c89fb9e9e46080b344b99634e24
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=help.git;a=commit;h=e2321b4d8fd5c889e817efdce243d8255f9e167a
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=help.git;a=commit;h=12227e8292bb583346c7fca808ddb78fde0f5011
>
> So, please keep your bug reports coming. Can you please file them to
> bugzilla, so they don't get lost? Many thanks in advance.
>
> Best regards,
> Andras
>
>


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Mihovil Stanic Mihovil Stanic
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

In reply to this post by Andras Timar

Dana 28.6.2013. 12:50, Andras Timar je napisao:
>
> Heh, reaction and fix within 24 hours is not that bad, is it? ;-)
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=core.git;a=commit;h=7547804ff28d9adcfc5a9a0a84b88de13bb8cc15
>

Can you please change word "Extracts" to "Returns" just for consistency
sake.
In almost all descriptions word "Returns" is used.

Best regards,
Mihovil

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Tom Tom
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

Hi :)
24hrs is impressive. 

Good work! 
Congrats and regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: Mihovil Stanic <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Friday, 28 June 2013, 12:00
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas
>
>
>
>Dana 28.6.2013. 12:50, Andras Timar je napisao:
>>
>> Heh, reaction and fix within 24 hours is not that bad, is it? ;-)
>> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=core.git;a=commit;h=7547804ff28d9adcfc5a9a0a84b88de13bb8cc15
>>
>
>Can you please change word "Extracts" to "Returns" just for consistency
>sake.
>In almost all descriptions word "Returns" is used.
>
>Best regards,
>Mihovil
>
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>
>
>
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Olivier Hallot Olivier Hallot
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

In reply to this post by Sérgio Marques
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello

Em 28-06-2013 07:43, Sérgio Marques escreveu:
> Many strings are badly formed but many of those were written in OpenOffice
> era.

Correct. Long time ago, the english was written by Germans, and carried
many unvoluntary germanicisms. Later, SUN did a review on the strings
and the quality improved.

>
> Several of them are even incorrect according with ODF formula like the ones
> You stated before.

If I get it right, LibreOffice should comply with ODFF, before it
complies with Microsoft Excel. A review of the functions description can
be set as an easy-hack. Currently I agree that the functions
descriptions in the function wizzard are a bit too terse.

>
> This could lead to corporate entities not adopting Libreoffice as main
> office app.

That is a shameless excuse. And by the way, you can have english
function names in a local UI. It is an option for Calc.

>
> Of course translators can always change strings not respecting the original
> ones but many of entities tend to use English language due to
> localization errors.

I am suprised on this statement. I don't see it in Brazil at all.

On a side note, I noticed ODFF had in the past funciton not available in
Excel. At the translation time, I had to create a new name for the
function. Later the function was introduced to Excel and, gess what?...
with another name. I was asked by the community to change the name to
comply with Excel... Rats!


I do this in Android system. In this case all I can

> say is that sometimes translations are better than original strings.
>
> Regards
>
> 2013/6/28 Mihovil Stanic <[hidden email]>
>
>> Just wanted to point out that descriptions in formula fileds are very
>> vague.
>> For example in a lot of formulas you will find field "Basis" with
>> description "The basis".
>> https://translations.**documentfoundation.org/hr/**
>> libo_ui/scaddins/source/**analysis.po/translate/#unit=**29745859<https://translations.documentfoundation.org/hr/libo_ui/scaddins/source/analysis.po/translate/#unit=29745859>
>>
>> Someone who tries to use that formula for first time will have a hard time
>> finding out what does that field do.
>> I'm re-translating all formulas since some of them were totally off so I
>> found out what that fielddoes and increased number of words in translation.
>> Good english description should look something like this: "Basis for
>> determining number of days in a year".
>>
>> There are a lot of other strings which are very vague and need better
>> description.
>> If someone will act on it, I can report strings I find and suggest better
>> description. But since noone from LO reacted on last 2 reports I'm guessing
>> this isn't interesting.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Mihovil
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscribe@global.**libreoffice.org<l10n%[hidden email]>
>> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-**
>> unsubscribe/<http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/>
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>> Netiquette <http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette>
>> List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/l10n/<http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/>
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>
>>
>
>

- --
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Fundação responsável civilmente, de acordo com o direito civil
Detalhes Legais: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
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Andras Timar Andras Timar
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

In reply to this post by Mihovil Stanic
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Mihovil Stanic
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Dana 28.6.2013. 12:50, Andras Timar je napisao:
>>
>>
>> Heh, reaction and fix within 24 hours is not that bad, is it? ;-)
>>
>> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=core.git;a=commit;h=7547804ff28d9adcfc5a9a0a84b88de13bb8cc15
>>
>
> Can you please change word "Extracts" to "Returns" just for consistency
> sake.
> In almost all descriptions word "Returns" is used.

Done.

Thanks,
Andras

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Tom Tom
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

Hi :)
Was there a record for speedy responses like that?  The 24 hours one now seems like such a lengthy delay!!  lol
Congrats and regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: Andras Timar <[hidden email]>
>To: Mihovil Stanic <[hidden email]>
>Cc: LibreOffice-l10n <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Friday, 28 June 2013, 12:14
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas
>
>
>On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Mihovil Stanic
><[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dana 28.6.2013. 12:50, Andras Timar je napisao:
>>>
>>>
>>> Heh, reaction and fix within 24 hours is not that bad, is it? ;-)
>>>
>>> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=core.git;a=commit;h=7547804ff28d9adcfc5a9a0a84b88de13bb8cc15
>>>
>>
>> Can you please change word "Extracts" to "Returns" just for consistency
>> sake.
>> In almost all descriptions word "Returns" is used.
>
>Done.
>
>Thanks,
>Andras
>
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>
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Sérgio Marques Sérgio Marques
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

In reply to this post by Olivier Hallot
2013/6/28 Olivier Hallot <[hidden email]>

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hello
>
> Em 28-06-2013 07:43, Sérgio Marques escreveu:
> > Many strings are badly formed but many of those were written in
> OpenOffice
> > era.
>
> Correct. Long time ago, the english was written by Germans, and carried
> many unvoluntary germanicisms. Later, SUN did a review on the strings
> and the quality improved.
>
> >
> > Several of them are even incorrect according with ODF formula like the
> ones
> > You stated before.
>
> If I get it right, LibreOffice should comply with ODFF, before it
> complies with Microsoft Excel. A review of the functions description can
> be set as an easy-hack. Currently I agree that the functions
> descriptions in the function wizzard are a bit too terse.
>


I also think that LibreOffice should comply to ODFF. But to help users
migrate from Microsoft Office to LibreOffice I think it´s better to have
similar strings (my locale and not other). But if devs apply properly the
ODFF (description, variables...) this could be changed.


>
> >
> > This could lead to corporate entities not adopting Libreoffice as main
> > office app.
>
> That is a shameless excuse. And by the way, you can have english
> function names in a local UI. It is an option for Calc.
>

I guess you missed the point.

If I use an application in English were some of the strings are badly
formed isn´t this a step back?

My problem isn´t with localized strings but with original ones. If those
have errors, I´m not having a very good impression. Do you?


>
> >
> > Of course translators can always change strings not respecting the
> original
> > ones but many of entities tend to use English language due to
> > localization errors.
>
> I am suprised on this statement. I don't see it in Brazil at all.
>

Well, I´m not an Brazilian user. If you don´t change strings accordingly,
Brazilian users are the only ones that can complain.

As Mihovil stated before do you think that "The basis" is a good string? I
don´t. That´s why I felt the need to change strings to
benefit Portuguese users. But that´s a choice that community has to make.

I think Brazilian users are better than Portuguese. It´s an cultural issue.
We tend to say that what come abroad is better than ours.

As well with paid software. Most of the people say that if it isn´t payed
it sucks. We still have many work to do in Portugal to change that state of
mind. For me OSS is better (most of the cases) than payed apps because of
freedom they provide. Of course there´s always some apps that can´t be
replaced by OSS software.




> On a side note, I noticed ODFF had in the past funciton not available in
> Excel. At the translation time, I had to create a new name for the
> function. Later the function was introduced to Excel and, gess what?...
> with another name. I was asked by the community to change the name to
> comply with Excel... Rats!
>

That´s the community choice. If they think that it won´t benefit users....

Regards

--
Sérgio Marques

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Thomas Hackert Thomas Hackert
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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: Word "basis" in formulas

In reply to this post by Andras Timar
Hello Andras, *,
On Freitag, 28. Juni 2013 12:50 Andras Timar wrote:
> On 2013.06.28. 12:20, Mihovil Stanic wrote:
>> There are a lot of other strings which are very vague and need
>> better description.
>> If someone will act on it, I can report strings I find and
>> suggest better description. But since noone from LO reacted on
>> last 2 reports I'm guessing this isn't interesting.
> Heh, reaction and fix within 24 hours is not that bad, is it? ;-)

it isn't :) Thank you very much :)

> So, please keep your bug reports coming. Can you please file them
> to bugzilla, so they don't get lost? Many thanks in advance.

Would you mind to have a look at http://go.mail-
archive.com/KEr5FunPxGHUIGJv4HGrUy4V1ys= (my mail from yesterday
with the subject "Inconsistent use of Formatting mark names in UI
and Help" from yesterday, please? I am not sure, if it only escaped
your attention ... ;)
TIA
Thomas.

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hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in
mind today: it is too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use.
 -- Edsger W. Dijkstra, SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 17, Number 5


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Tom Tom
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas

In reply to this post by Sérgio Marques
Hi :)
In England we have a phrase "The grass is always greener on the other side [of the fence]".  I've not seen it in other countries (except maybe in the US in movies) but we often have tiny gardens and some people take great pride in tending them very carefully.  Trying to make theirs look nicer than their neighbours.  Coming into the country by plane you see the back gardens of houses looking like a "patchwork quilt" of slightly different green colours. 

I think that when a description doesn't look quite right in English it might help to see the nearest Excel equivalent just to get inspiration but in the 1 case earlier i found the ODF description was plenty.  The Excel ones are written for corporate America and don't always suit us.  Also there might be copyright issues if we do follow them too closely.  We do have to follow them to some extent but if we are always following then we will always be behind them.  So, an occasional glance in their direction is good but slavishly following them is not.  (in my opinion)

As a native English speaker i have to say that while the strings are not always perfect English that sometimes makes them seem exotic.  It gives them a flavour of far away places, far from the petty troubles that bog me down in daily life, far away from the howling wind and constant rain battering down on my head now that it's summer here.  So it's not always a bad thing if something is a little badly formed. 


There are tons of things that LO does far better than MSO.  The main thing (for me) is that the quality of documents produced using LO is far better for much less work.  When i need to place logos or position images LO allows me much more freedom and wraps the text faster so i can show different ideas to my boss faster.  Bullet-points line up and stay the same shape and size.  Numbered lists don't lose count.  Styles don't suddenly change and the dictionary doesn't keep flicking back into American so my spell checker is more reliable.  Exporting to Pdf gives more options.  I don't use fancy features but i think LO outperforms there too. 

People in England also often think there are only 2 business models
1.  "Stack them high.  Sell them cheap", ie don't worry about flaws or problems, just keep prices low so that big profits only arise from selling large quantities = this is the Windows approach
2.  "You get what you pay for", ie that Quality is expensive = the Apple approach
Unfortunately in IT it doesn't quite work like that but people still hold onto those notions.  Windows charges too much and doesn't give better quality but because of the higher price people assume that it must be better.  There is a great kids book "The Emporer's New Clothes".  People don't seem to realise that NOT giving profit to competitors is also a good approach and that pooling resources with other companies can also help keep expenses/overheads down.  People tend to only think of buying&selling a product.  They don't think about cost-of-production and the politics of becoming dependant on a competitor. 

Regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: Sérgio Marques <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Cc: [hidden email]
>Sent: Friday, 28 June 2013, 12:55
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Word "basis" in formulas
>
>
>2013/6/28 Olivier Hallot <[hidden email]>
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Hello
>>
>> Em 28-06-2013 07:43, Sérgio Marques escreveu:
>> > Many strings are badly formed but many of those were written in
>> OpenOffice
>> > era.
>>
>> Correct. Long time ago, the English was written by Germans, and carried
>> many unvoluntary germanicisms. Later, SUN did a review on the strings
>> and the quality improved.
>>
>> >
>> > Several of them are even incorrect according with ODF formula like the
>> ones
>> > You stated before.
>>
>> If I get it right, LibreOffice should comply with ODFF, before it
>> complies with Microsoft Excel. A review of the functions description can
>> be set as an easy-hack. Currently I agree that the functions
>> descriptions in the function wizard are a bit too terse.
>>
>
>
>I also think that LibreOffice should comply to ODFF. But to help users
>migrate from Microsoft Office to LibreOffice I think it´s better to have
>similar strings (my locale and not other). But if devs apply properly the
>ODFF (description, variables...) this could be changed.
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > This could lead to corporate entities not adopting LibreOffice as main
>> > office app.
>>
>> That is a shameless excuse. And by the way, you can have English
>> function names in a local UI. It is an option for Calc.
>>
>
>I guess you missed the point.
>
>If I use an application in English were some of the strings are badly
>formed isn´t this a step back?
>
>My problem isn´t with localized strings but with original ones. If those
>have errors, I´m not having a very good impression. Do you?
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > Of course translators can always change strings not respecting the
>> original
>> > ones but many of entities tend to use English language due to
>> > localization errors.
>>
>> I am surprised on this statement. I don't see it in Brazil at all.
>>
>
>Well, I´m not an Brazilian user. If you don´t change strings accordingly,
>Brazilian users are the only ones that can complain.
>
>As Mihovil stated before do you think that "The basis" is a good string? I
>don´t. That´s why I felt the need to change strings to
>benefit Portuguese users. But that´s a choice that community has to make.
>
>I think Brazilian users are better than Portuguese. It´s an cultural issue.
>We tend to say that what come abroad is better than ours.
>
>As well with paid software. Most of the people say that if it isn´t paid for
>it sucks. We still have many work to do in Portugal to change that state of
>mind. For me OSS is better (most of the cases) than paid-for apps because of
>freedom they provide. Of course there´s always some apps that can´t be
>replaced by OSS software.
>
>
>
>
>> On a side note, I noticed ODFF had in the past function not available in
>> Excel. At the translation time, I had to create a new name for the
>> function. Later the function was introduced to Excel and, guess what?...
>> with another name. I was asked by the community to change the name to
>> comply with Excel... Rats!
>>
>
>That´s the community choice. If they think that it won´t benefit users....
>
>Regards
>
>--
>Sérgio Marques
>
>
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