[libreoffice-l10n] Workflow based on master

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Michael Bauer Michael Bauer
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes?


Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 16/12/2014 aig 07:23:
> workload issue again and sent a mail to devs and UX to be careful with
> our workflow. UX has set a page with string changes here:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/RecentStringChanges
Those are actually all 'acceptable' and in fact, most look very welcome
as they down-geek the wording :-D
> It's part of my job to smooth things in the project, and I'll really try
> to do my best here.
Thanks for what you're doing. Feeling a bit more hopeful for the future!

Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes?

Hi :)
It might help to have a few people on both mailing lists (or whatever the
devs use to communicate between each other).

That way maybe one of those people might notice when one of the mailing
lists starts talking about doing something that might have an impact on one
of the other mailing lists they are on.


On the Accessibility Mailing List a few days ago there was mention that one
of the recent breakages could be fixed by adding a tiny bit of text into
the menu items.  I warned them that;
1.  it would impact on the translators who were struggling with a similar
issue right now.
2.  if they could get their changes in within a couple of days then it
might neatly fit into the work the translators are doing right now and thus
avoid duplication
3.  that if they couldn't get their UI changes in right now then it would
be better to wait a few months, or longer, in the hope that the translators
might get some automation to handle it.

The result seems to be that they have given up on getting that improvement
through :(  NOT the result i'd intended because i think Accessibility is
also crucial and it gets far less support than translators or
documentation.


Imo it would have been great if the current set of changes had been
coordinated with stuff that the other teams need.  There is already a
system to try to coordinate between teams but it doesn't seem to be
working.

I think if it was backed-up by having a few people liaising between a
couple of mailing lists, and a couple other people liaising between a
couple of other mailing lists then it might be easier to coordinate between
the teams.

Regards from
Tom :)





On 16 December 2014 at 08:40, Michael Bauer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Sgrìobh Sophie na leanas 16/12/2014 aig 07:23:
>
>> workload issue again and sent a mail to devs and UX to be careful with
>> our workflow. UX has set a page with string changes here:
>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/RecentStringChanges
>>
> Those are actually all 'acceptable' and in fact, most look very welcome as
> they down-geek the wording :-D
>
>> It's part of my job to smooth things in the project, and I'll really try
>> to do my best here.
>>
> Thanks for what you're doing. Feeling a bit more hopeful for the future!
>
> Michael
>
> --
> *Akerbeltz <http://www.faclair.com/>*
> Goireasan Gàidhlig air an lìon
> Fòn: +44-141-946 4437
> Facs: +44-141-945 2701
>
> *Tha Gàidhlig aig a' choimpiutair agad, siuthad, feuch e!*
> Iomadh rud eadar prògraman oifis, brabhsairean, predictive texting,
> geamannan is mòran a bharrachd. Tadhail oirnn aig www.iGàidhlig.net
> <http://www.xn--igidhlig-0ya.net> <http://www.iGaidhlig.net/>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
> unsubscribe/
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> deleted
>

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sophi sophi
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes?

Hi Tom,
Le 16/12/2014 10:09, Tom Davies a écrit :
> Hi :)
> It might help to have a few people on both mailing lists (or whatever the
> devs use to communicate between each other).

That's what I'm supposed to do, but I think you've noticed it :)
>
> That way maybe one of those people might notice when one of the mailing
> lists starts talking about doing something that might have an impact on one
> of the other mailing lists they are on.

yes, and I'm constantly discussing the string changes with the UX team
(mostly Jay and on IRC). Because of the openness of our project, anybody
can suggest a change without being aware of the impact it can have for
other team or sometime even for the product. Cor is monitoring a lot on
Bugzilla about those changes and he is dedicating a lot of his time.

>
>
> On the Accessibility Mailing List a few days ago there was mention that one
> of the recent breakages could be fixed by adding a tiny bit of text into
> the menu items.  I warned them that;
> 1.  it would impact on the translators who were struggling with a similar
> issue right now.
> 2.  if they could get their changes in within a couple of days then it
> might neatly fit into the work the translators are doing right now and thus
> avoid duplication
> 3.  that if they couldn't get their UI changes in right now then it would
> be better to wait a few months, or longer, in the hope that the translators
> might get some automation to handle it.
>
> The result seems to be that they have given up on getting that improvement
> through :(  NOT the result i'd intended because i think Accessibility is
> also crucial and it gets far less support than translators or
> documentation.

The trick is to add the shortcuts to the menu label in order for them to
be read by screen readers. Whether it will be done or not will depend on
who will open the issue and implement it. Stuart is part of the Design
team, so he is aware of the l10n team request about massive changes, but
I will monitor it.
>
>
> Imo it would have been great if the current set of changes had been
> coordinated with stuff that the other teams need.  There is already a
> system to try to coordinate between teams but it doesn't seem to be
> working.

What system are you talking about?
>
> I think if it was backed-up by having a few people liaising between a
> couple of mailing lists, and a couple other people liaising between a
> couple of other mailing lists then it might be easier to coordinate between
> the teams.

The only way to coordinate is to do cross communication between the teams :)
Cheers
Sophie


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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes?

Hi :)
Yes, i have noticed you are on MANY lists and extremely active in just
about all the ones i see you on, whereas i tend to be just a lurker on most
that i am on.  Stuart likewise is extremely active and very busy on quite a
few teams.

However i think it is difficult to process so many mailing lists.  If a few
other people could help with just 1 or 2 more mailing lists than they are
currently on then it might be easier for them to "free up" some of your
time.

Relying on a single person places a lot of stress on that one person and if
they ever leave it's a nightmare trying to catch up or figure out what
needs to be done.


The systems that don't appear to be working are whatever systems we have
for communicating between teams.  This thread is not the first time there
has been this problem.


However i don't think it's bad to have what is already "in place", just
that we could clearly do with a bit more direct liaison.
Regards from
Tom :)



On 16 December 2014 at 09:37, Sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Tom,
> Le 16/12/2014 10:09, Tom Davies a écrit :
> > Hi :)
> > It might help to have a few people on both mailing lists (or whatever the
> > devs use to communicate between each other).
>
> That's what I'm supposed to do, but I think you've noticed it :)
> >
> > That way maybe one of those people might notice when one of the mailing
> > lists starts talking about doing something that might have an impact on
> one
> > of the other mailing lists they are on.
>
> yes, and I'm constantly discussing the string changes with the UX team
> (mostly Jay and on IRC). Because of the openness of our project, anybody
> can suggest a change without being aware of the impact it can have for
> other team or sometime even for the product. Cor is monitoring a lot on
> Bugzilla about those changes and he is dedicating a lot of his time.
> >
> >
> > On the Accessibility Mailing List a few days ago there was mention that
> one
> > of the recent breakages could be fixed by adding a tiny bit of text into
> > the menu items.  I warned them that;
> > 1.  it would impact on the translators who were struggling with a similar
> > issue right now.
> > 2.  if they could get their changes in within a couple of days then it
> > might neatly fit into the work the translators are doing right now and
> thus
> > avoid duplication
> > 3.  that if they couldn't get their UI changes in right now then it would
> > be better to wait a few months, or longer, in the hope that the
> translators
> > might get some automation to handle it.
> >
> > The result seems to be that they have given up on getting that
> improvement
> > through :(  NOT the result i'd intended because i think Accessibility is
> > also crucial and it gets far less support than translators or
> > documentation.
>
> The trick is to add the shortcuts to the menu label in order for them to
> be read by screen readers. Whether it will be done or not will depend on
> who will open the issue and implement it. Stuart is part of the Design
> team, so he is aware of the l10n team request about massive changes, but
> I will monitor it.
> >
> >
> > Imo it would have been great if the current set of changes had been
> > coordinated with stuff that the other teams need.  There is already a
> > system to try to coordinate between teams but it doesn't seem to be
> > working.
>
> What system are you talking about?
> >
> > I think if it was backed-up by having a few people liaising between a
> > couple of mailing lists, and a couple other people liaising between a
> > couple of other mailing lists then it might be easier to coordinate
> between
> > the teams.
>
> The only way to coordinate is to do cross communication between the teams
> :)
> Cheers
> Sophie
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/
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> deleted
>

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TomD TomD
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes?

Hi :)
Err, mostly i am saying that people who are grumbling could take control a
bit.  Even just knowing that something is going to happen is often a big
help.

"Just lurking" doesn't usually mean tons of work = it might on the devs
list as it sounds like it might be high traffic.  However, joining a low
traffic one, such as Accessibility (has maybe 2 posts/month on average!)
might help free other people (such as Stuart and Sophie) a bit so that they
don't worry about that list so much.


That doesn't negate the need for the other things that have been discussed
but it might help preempt and get more control of this sort of thing for
the future.

Regards from
Tom :)



On 16 December 2014 at 09:52, Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi :)
> Yes, i have noticed you are on MANY lists and extremely active in just
> about all the ones i see you on, whereas i tend to be just a lurker on most
> that i am on.  Stuart likewise is extremely active and very busy on quite a
> few teams.
>
> However i think it is difficult to process so many mailing lists.  If a
> few other people could help with just 1 or 2 more mailing lists than they
> are currently on then it might be easier for them to "free up" some of your
> time.
>
> Relying on a single person places a lot of stress on that one person and
> if they ever leave it's a nightmare trying to catch up or figure out what
> needs to be done.
>
>
> The systems that don't appear to be working are whatever systems we have
> for communicating between teams.  This thread is not the first time there
> has been this problem.
>
>
> However i don't think it's bad to have what is already "in place", just
> that we could clearly do with a bit more direct liaison.
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
> On 16 December 2014 at 09:37, Sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tom,
>> Le 16/12/2014 10:09, Tom Davies a écrit :
>> > Hi :)
>> > It might help to have a few people on both mailing lists (or whatever
>> the
>> > devs use to communicate between each other).
>>
>> That's what I'm supposed to do, but I think you've noticed it :)
>> >
>> > That way maybe one of those people might notice when one of the mailing
>> > lists starts talking about doing something that might have an impact on
>> one
>> > of the other mailing lists they are on.
>>
>> yes, and I'm constantly discussing the string changes with the UX team
>> (mostly Jay and on IRC). Because of the openness of our project, anybody
>> can suggest a change without being aware of the impact it can have for
>> other team or sometime even for the product. Cor is monitoring a lot on
>> Bugzilla about those changes and he is dedicating a lot of his time.
>> >
>> >
>> > On the Accessibility Mailing List a few days ago there was mention that
>> one
>> > of the recent breakages could be fixed by adding a tiny bit of text into
>> > the menu items.  I warned them that;
>> > 1.  it would impact on the translators who were struggling with a
>> similar
>> > issue right now.
>> > 2.  if they could get their changes in within a couple of days then it
>> > might neatly fit into the work the translators are doing right now and
>> thus
>> > avoid duplication
>> > 3.  that if they couldn't get their UI changes in right now then it
>> would
>> > be better to wait a few months, or longer, in the hope that the
>> translators
>> > might get some automation to handle it.
>> >
>> > The result seems to be that they have given up on getting that
>> improvement
>> > through :(  NOT the result i'd intended because i think Accessibility is
>> > also crucial and it gets far less support than translators or
>> > documentation.
>>
>> The trick is to add the shortcuts to the menu label in order for them to
>> be read by screen readers. Whether it will be done or not will depend on
>> who will open the issue and implement it. Stuart is part of the Design
>> team, so he is aware of the l10n team request about massive changes, but
>> I will monitor it.
>> >
>> >
>> > Imo it would have been great if the current set of changes had been
>> > coordinated with stuff that the other teams need.  There is already a
>> > system to try to coordinate between teams but it doesn't seem to be
>> > working.
>>
>> What system are you talking about?
>> >
>> > I think if it was backed-up by having a few people liaising between a
>> > couple of mailing lists, and a couple other people liaising between a
>> > couple of other mailing lists then it might be easier to coordinate
>> between
>> > the teams.
>>
>> The only way to coordinate is to do cross communication between the teams
>> :)
>> Cheers
>> Sophie
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
>> Problems?
>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/
>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
>> deleted
>>
>

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Jesper Hertel Jesper Hertel
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Cosmetic changes?

In reply to this post by Michael Bauer
2014-12-14 10:52 GMT+01:00 Michael Bauer <[hidden email]>:

> Khaled,
>
> Sgrìobh Khaled Hosny na leanas 14/12/2014 aig 06:35:
>
>> but the way people is complaining about them is what I'm worried about as
>> it shows that some localiser seem to have total disregard to things that
>> are intrinsic to the quality of any textual material, let alone
>> localisation.
>>
> I resent that, I actually make a living off this and I'm very good at it.
> But perhaps it's just that a newsgroup as a medium can be somewhat
> deficient for human communication. Please let me therefore spell it out to
> you how I respect l10n and how l10n sometimes disrespects me (Sophie,
> keeping the good mood is hard - if it happens once, it's a mistake, no
> probs, don't do it again, let's move on. The second time, I scratch my head
> and ask 'weren't we here before'. The third time I feel like someone is
> taking the pish).
>
> So... realy examples...
>
> en-US
> You opened %d files > You closed %d files
> My head: ok, content change, let's fix it, no worries
>
> en-US
> [new string]
> My head: ok cool, let's localize
>
> en-US
> %Y-%m-%d > %Y-%M-%D
> gd-GB
> %d-%m-%Y > %D-%M-%Y
> My head: ok, maybe there is more space or something, let's get it localized
>
> en-US
> Opening text documents > Opening Text Documents
> gd-GB
> A' fosgladh sgrìobhainnean teacsa > A' fosgladh sgrìobhainnean teacsa
> My head: Stop messing me around. My locale has strict rules about caps
> (only proper nouns are capped), you're making unnecessary work for me.
>
> en-US
> Opening ~text documents > Opening _text documents
> gd-GB
> A' fosgladh ~sgrìobhainnean teacsa > A' fosgladh _sgrìobhainnean teacsa
> My head: Maybe there is a technical need for this change but can't you
> automate that? You're making unnecessary work for me, this is not l10n work
> because as a localizer I have no control over what marks a hotkey. This is
> a developer problem.
>
> en-US
> The "Terms and Conditions" > The “Terms and Conditions”
> gd-GB
> Na "teirmichean is cumhaichean" > Na "teirmichean is cumhaichean"
> My head: Stop messing me around. The choice of formatted vs unformatted "
> is locale specific stuff and not governed by the en-US source. If a locale
> decides to go from unformatted to formatted, then that is decided by the
> locale (e.g. due to change in linguistic practice in the country). This is
> not governed by why en-US does or does not do. Case in point, some locales
> use «» so the question of en-US going " > ” is even more pointless.
>
> en-US
> The Terms\n\n and Conditions > The Terms\n\n and Conditions
> My head: This is one of the most useless ways of making layout anyway
> because the localizer has to *guess* how much space there is. To make it
> worse, you now make me sit through the developers playing with \n or \n\n.
> Would be nice if someone just wrapped that automatically or gave me some
> guidance as to the space available.
>
> en-US
> The "Trems adn Cnditions" > The "Terms and Conditions"
> gd-GB
> Na "teirmichean is cumhaichean" > Na "teirmichean is cumhaichean"
> My head: Ok so the person who texted this string was drunk. Happens. But
> why do *I* have to look at this again? The en-US typo does not change the
> content of the source so my translation is ok as it is, it's just a source
> typo being fixed. Argh.
>
> THAT'S what we're moaning about...
>
> Michael
>
>
This is an "old" post (I just read it now), but I just wanted to say what
an excellent description of the problem that was, Michael! So much to the
point and so precise. What a joy to read.


Jesper

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