low traffic lately?

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TomD TomD
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low traffic lately?

Hi :)
Does anyone else feel we have had very low traffic over the last few
weeks?  yet many answers going unanswered?

If so should we be pointing people towards AskLO more?  It seemed like
we had tons of activity when we used to have tons of arguments about
almost everything so maybe fake one??  Other thoughts?

My own thought is that mailing lists are a bit archaic and unfamiliar
to most new users = so it's natural for a project to mature towards
forums and gui type support structures and even, perhaps, greater use
of 3rd party sites, perhaps downstream such as Ubuntu, Mageia forums
and such.
Regards from
Tom :)

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Virgil Arrington Virgil Arrington
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Re: low traffic lately?

I've seen a lot of traffic. I haven't responded because most of the
questions have been about things I know little about.

Virgil

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Davies
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 9:40 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [libreoffice-users] low traffic lately?

Hi :)
Does anyone else feel we have had very low traffic over the last few
weeks?  yet many answers going unanswered?

If so should we be pointing people towards AskLO more?  It seemed like
we had tons of activity when we used to have tons of arguments about
almost everything so maybe fake one??  Other thoughts?

My own thought is that mailing lists are a bit archaic and unfamiliar
to most new users = so it's natural for a project to mature towards
forums and gui type support structures and even, perhaps, greater use
of 3rd party sites, perhaps downstream such as Ubuntu, Mageia forums
and such.
Regards from
Tom :)

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CVAlkan CVAlkan
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by TomD
Hi Tom:

Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this in favor of AskLO.

Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin boards and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s), but all I see are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have any of those accounts, and don't want them, since I get enough spam already and don't have much interest in cat videos or what my neighbors had for dinner.

Sorry - I'll go away now.

Frank
anne-ology anne-ology
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by TomD
       ditto here.



From: Virgil Arrington <[hidden email]>
Date: Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] low traffic lately?
To: Tom Davies <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <
[hidden email]>


I've seen a lot of traffic. I haven't responded because most of the
questions have been about things I know little about.

Virgil



From: Tom Davies
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2014 9:40 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [libreoffice-users] low traffic lately?


Hi :)
Does anyone else feel we have had very low traffic over the last few
weeks?  yet many answers going unanswered?

If so should we be pointing people towards AskLO more?  It seemed like
we had tons of activity when we used to have tons of arguments about
almost everything so maybe fake one??  Other thoughts?

My own thought is that mailing lists are a bit archaic and unfamiliar
to most new users = so it's natural for a project to mature towards
forums and gui type support structures and even, perhaps, greater use
of 3rd party sites, perhaps downstream such as Ubuntu, Mageia forums
and such.
Regards from
Tom :)

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anne-ology anne-ology
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by TomD
       as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is -
           and probably don't want to know if it's similar to Facebook,
Google, et.al.
       because I too don't want all the additional spam ...
           or the minute-by-minute diaries of the inane.

       I too have been using these computers since the days of the BBs  ;-)
           and see no reason why e-mail should be considered out-of-date.

       BTW - it irks me when someone requests a reply only through facebook
or twittering ... ... ...
          (I happen to enjoy watching, & listening, to the birds, yet they
stay in the yard)



From: CVAlkan <[hidden email]>
Date: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 1:29 PM
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
To: [hidden email]


Hi Tom:

Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never
figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this in favor
of AskLO.

Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin boards
and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s), but all I see
are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have
any of those accounts, and don't want them, since I get enough spam already
and don't have much interest in cat videos or what my neighbors had for
dinner.

Sorry - I'll go away now.

Frank

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Anthony Baldwin-2 Anthony Baldwin-2
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by anne-ology
On 1/25/2014 2:56 PM, anne-ology wrote:
>         d
>
> My own thought is that mailing lists are a bit archaic and unfamiliar
> to most new users = so it's natural for a project to mature towards
> forums and gui type support structures and even, perhaps, greater use
> of 3rd party sites, perhaps downstream such as Ubuntu, Mageia forums
> and such.

I wouldn't call that 'maturing' by a long shot.
I would call that pandering to the lowest common denominator.
I use Free Software to get away from corporate manipulation (well,
that's one of many reasons).
Why would I want to use some ad-supported, third-party social site?

I don't know...maybe that's were users are now,
but I, for one, prefer a good old-fashioned mailing list
and/or an IRC channel, anyday to a Facebook or Google group,
or whatever.

If the project had its own forum, like the phpbb or simplemachines,
that wouldn't be too bad, but my feeling is that responses
are faster on a mailing list.
I have to check my e-mail regularly.
I don't have to check a forum, unless I'm waiting for a response, myself.

Tony


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Anthony Baldwin-2 Anthony Baldwin-2
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by anne-ology
On 1/25/2014 3:07 PM, anne-ology wrote:
>         as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is -

It's http://ask.libreoffice.org
I just figured that out, myself
(searched duckduckgo for "AskLO LibreOffice".)

It looks like a simple Q/A forum.

Doesn't look like FB or G+ or anything that stupid.
It IS disturbing that there seems to be no means of
participating without using (and signing in with) some 3rd party
service, and almost all those listed are corporate fascist networks,
like Google, Facebook, Yahoo!, AOL, Twitter, etc.
they do offer sign-in with wordpress or livejournal, which are both
blogging communities built on FLOSS.
That's about as good as it gets. Oh, or an OpenID.
But, if you don't have an account with any of these other services,
seems you're left out.

./tony


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Dave Barton Dave Barton
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by CVAlkan
CVAlkan wrote:

> Hi Tom:
>
> Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never
> figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this in favor
> of AskLO.
>
> Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin boards
> and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s), but all I see
> are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have
> any of those accounts, and don't want them, since I get enough spam already
> and don't have much interest in cat videos or what my neighbors had for
> dinner.
>
> Sorry - I'll go away now.
>
> Frank

Hi Frank,

For some unexplained reason The Document Foundation board chose to use a
modified edition of the Askbot software [1] which, unlike Askbot's own
forum [2], does not allow you to set up a local log-in account.

If you dare suggest that you do not want to have a third party social
media account, you run the risk of at least one TDF board member calling
you a "paranoid" freak [3].

I was working with a small (only 40-50 seat) client company on a
proposal for migrating to LibreOffice. Mistakenly, in the process of
showing them the software's features, I demonstrated the new "Help ->
Send Feedback" "Ask a question" option, which ultimately leads to the
AskLibO site. The client asked me why they or their staff would be
required to have a third party social media account to use that service.
Unlike some TDF board members, I do not make it a practice to tell my
clients that they need to get a life and get over their stupid "paranoia".

Dave

[1] https://askbot.com/
[2] http://askbot.org/en/account/signin/?next=/en/
[3] http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/AskLibO-Access-td4091511.html



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Girvin Herr-2 Girvin Herr-2
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by anne-ology
+1

I have been working with general purpose computers since the mid 70s and
made a pretty good career out of it until I retired 10 years ago.  I
don't do facebook because it violates my computer security rules and I
strongly disagree with facebook's data-mining business model.

In my view, the reason email, BBs, and forums like this one seem to be
out of favor is that general purpose computers are becoming dinosaurs in
favor of mainstream ipads and smart phones.  Last year I upgraded my
10-year-old desktop computer and discovered new components are becoming
difficult to find.  This may be the last time I can upgrade it, since I
suspect in 10 years, the desktop computer will not be available.  That
gives me a warm fuzzy, but then in 10 years I may not care.

The way I see it, if someone only allows responses from me via facebook
and/or twitter, then they don't get a response, which effectively
self-limits their help.

Girvin Herr



On 01/25/2014 12:07 PM, anne-ology wrote:

>         as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is -
>             and probably don't want to know if it's similar to Facebook,
> Google, et.al.
>         because I too don't want all the additional spam ...
>             or the minute-by-minute diaries of the inane.
>
>         I too have been using these computers since the days of the BBs  ;-)
>             and see no reason why e-mail should be considered out-of-date.
>
>         BTW - it irks me when someone requests a reply only through facebook
> or twittering ... ... ...
>            (I happen to enjoy watching, & listening, to the birds, yet they
> stay in the yard)
>
>
>
> From: CVAlkan <[hidden email]>
> Date: Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 1:29 PM
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: low traffic lately?
> To: [hidden email]
>
>
> Hi Tom:
>
> Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never
> figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this in favor
> of AskLO.
>
> Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin boards
> and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s), but all I see
> are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have
> any of those accounts, and don't want them, since I get enough spam already
> and don't have much interest in cat videos or what my neighbors had for
> dinner.
>
> Sorry - I'll go away now.
>
> Frank
>


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James E Lang-2 James E Lang-2
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by TomD


--
Jim


Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Hi :)
>Does anyone else feel we have had very low traffic over the last few
>weeks?  yet many answers going unanswered?

Is this a result of having to "reply all" to get the answer automatically sent to the list?

I have been led to believe that "reply all" should be used sparingly and that its indiscriminate use is rude.

--
Jim

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Anthony Baldwin-2 Anthony Baldwin-2
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by Girvin Herr-2
On 01/25/2014 05:46 PM, Girvin Herr wrote:

> +1
>
> I have been working with general purpose computers since the mid 70s and
> made a pretty good career out of it until I retired 10 years ago.  I
> don't do facebook because it violates my computer security rules and I
> strongly disagree with facebook's data-mining business model.
>
> In my view, the reason email, BBs, and forums like this one seem to be
> out of favor is that general purpose computers are becoming dinosaurs in
> favor of mainstream ipads and smart phones.  Last year I upgraded my
> 10-year-old desktop computer and discovered new components are becoming
> difficult to find.  This may be the last time I can upgrade it, since I
> suspect in 10 years, the desktop computer will not be available.  That
> gives me a warm fuzzy, but then in 10 years I may not care.

I keep hearing this, and it is quite true that many people, your average
consumer whatever, are using their smartphones and tablets more to
access internet stuff.
But, there's a whole lot of things I do with a computer that are simply
not practically or ergonomically appropriate for a tablet or phone.
I'm certainly not going to hack on a phone, or work on a tablet.
I am a professional translator, hobby web/software developer.
I type thousands of words/day for my work, and need a real keyboard,
not some 5inch touchpad on a phone.

I mean, are people going to write their thesis on a tablet?
Write a novel on a phone?
And that's just writing stuff...what about all the complex
mathematical stuff done in the sciences...
I don't think astronomers are going to be crunching Hubble data on an
iPhone.


>
> The way I see it, if someone only allows responses from me via facebook
> and/or twitter, then they don't get a response, which effectively
> self-limits their help.

With this, I wholeheartedly agree.
I do not use FB, G+, Twitter, Tumblr, Instagram, SnapChat, WhatsApp, or
any other corporate fascist owned "social network" (corporate feedlot).

I DO use forums, friendica, redmatrix, libertree, pumpio, statusnet,
and other free/open source, decentralized, federated networking
platforms, however.

No borrowed "cloud" storage, either. I will host and control my own
data, thank you.
These corporate fascists want to own all your data, not only to have
full access to it, but also so you are dependent upon them.
We're all smart enough to see the evils in vendor lock-in, monopolies,
and corporate manipulation, or we wouldn't be using LibreOffice;
we'd be using MSOrifice.
So why would we be on Facebook?
We need fewer corporate fascist monopolies, more freedom and
self-determination.

but this is all largely OT...sorry

Tony


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upscope upscope
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by CVAlkan
On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:29:58 AM CVAlkan wrote:

> Hi Tom:
>
> Just my two cents. I've tried using AskLO several times and have never
> figured out how to set up an account, so I hope you don't drop this
> in favor of AskLO.
>
> Maybe I'm just dense (and I've only been using computers and bulletin
> boards and mailing lists and their descendants since the mid-80s),
> but all I see are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so
> forth, and I don't have any of those accounts, and don't want them,
> since I get enough spam already and don't have much interest in cat
> videos or what my neighbors had for dinner.
>
> Sorry - I'll go away now.
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/low-traffic-lately-tp4093796p409
> 3937.html Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

I also will not use social media services. They are a complete security
rise. Ask Facebook how many users information was stolen recently? I
will use a mailing list or forum.
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Russ
pete nikolic pete nikolic
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by anne-ology
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 14:07:02 -0600
anne-ology <[hidden email]> wrote:

>        as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is -
>            and probably don't want to know if it's similar to Facebook,
> Google, et.al.
>        because I too don't want all the additional spam ...
>            or the minute-by-minute diaries of the inane.
>
>        I too have been using these computers since the days of the BBs  ;-)
>            and see no reason why e-mail should be considered out-of-date.
>
>        BTW - it irks me when someone requests a reply only through facebook
> or twittering ... ... ...
>           (I happen to enjoy watching, & listening, to the birds, yet they
> stay in the yard)

+1

Pete


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TomD TomD
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Re: low traffic lately?

Hi :)
I was reading somewhere (or perhaps in a film) that Facebook considers
itself to have reached "market saturation" once 55% of the people in a
country/university/other-sample are using it.  Continued investment in
marketing brings diminishing returns so they cut their advertising
budget there (just enough to keep it "ticking over") and increase
their advertising budget elsewhere.

Anyway, this thread wasn't meant to be about bashing social media.
Obviously quite a LOT of us on this list feel much the same way
otherwise we would probably have moved over by now.  A lot of people
DO like social media so i think it's good that TDF has given them a
way of getting help using that sort of method.  Like most things i'd
be surprised if it was perfectly set-up first time but hopefully there
is some way of reporting problems or suggesting new features and maybe
people might see some of those get resolved.


James Lang went back to the original question and like many people in
another thread suggested the drop in traffic might be something to do
with "Reply" taking messages off-list.  Sadly bottom-posting meant his
message got hidden under the signatures so people probably thought it
was just an accidental empty email
"Is this a result of having to "reply all" to get the answer
automatically sent to the list?

I have been led to believe that "reply all" should be used sparingly
and that its indiscriminate use is rude.

Jim"


It might help if people could write to the postmaster of this mailing
list explaining why they think it's a bad idea for this list to
operate the way it does.  Apparently on other lists people wrote in to
grumble that it wasn't set-up this way previously.  Grumbling to the
mailing-list itself wont get anywhere because none of us can influence
policy.
Regards from
Tom :)





On 26 January 2014 08:56, pete nikolic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 14:07:02 -0600
> anne-ology <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>        as for me, I don't even know what AskLO is -
>>            and probably don't want to know if it's similar to Facebook,
>> Google, et.al.
>>        because I too don't want all the additional spam ...
>>            or the minute-by-minute diaries of the inane.
>>
>>        I too have been using these computers since the days of the BBs  ;-)
>>            and see no reason why e-mail should be considered out-of-date.
>>
>>        BTW - it irks me when someone requests a reply only through facebook
>> or twittering ... ... ...
>>           (I happen to enjoy watching, & listening, to the birds, yet they
>> stay in the yard)
>
> +1
>
> Pete
>
>
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Tinkerer Tinkerer
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by pete nikolic
I looked at ASKLO, but the requirement to sign up for Twitter I found off putting.
Why cannot I just join ASK?

Tink.
Owen Genat Owen Genat
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by CVAlkan
CVAlkan wrote
I've tried using AskLO several times and have never figured out how to set up an account, ...

... all I see are ways to sign in using Google or Facebook and so forth, and I don't have any of those accounts
This thread has become hijacked by several comments about requiring a Facebook or Twitter or social media account to use the AskLO site. I am responding to this comment simply because it is the first, but am not wanting to single anyone out. Hopefully I can provide some useful information. There are threads on AskLO about various aspects of this very issue:

http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/21348/can-the-interface-for-registering-at-asklo-be-improved/
http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/11140/how-can-we-encourage-more-people-to-sign-in-to-the-ask-site/
http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/question/24838/registration-at-libo-after-opendid-stops/

To be clear, what is required to sign in to AskLO is an OpenID verified domain. This can be any such verified site, including a personal site if anyone cares to setup OpenID verification for themselves (I have not tested this, and comment in one of the listed threads that if this does not work a bug needs to be raised). The point here is that if anyone wants to take control of their own verification, they are free to do so. There are a *lot* of OpenID providers. Click the OpenID badge and enter the URL of a provider.

All the major social media service providers use this type of verification and this is expected. LO as a project will naturally attempt to make use of such types of media (e.g., by tweeting and facebooking) as that is where a lot of people are these days. It is however unlikely that email will completely die, but it now has competing channels it never had in years past. The web is diversifying and fragmenting as it grows and this too is completely natural.

The hope is that LO itself will become an OpenID provider so that a single LO account will allow sign-in to all the OpenID-supported services that LO makes use of (nabble, gerrit, AskBot, wiki, etc.) and will enhance those that do not currently support OpenID to do so e.g., bugzilla. LO is a big project with a lot of different services and sites so this make sense IMO.

There is also the alternate forum (http://en.libreofficeforum.org/forum/) that has a local registration. Disclosure: I am a moderator there.
Best wishes, Owen.
pikov22 pikov22
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by Anthony Baldwin-2
Anthony Baldwin has written on 1/26/2014 12:01 AM:

>
> I keep hearing this, and it is quite true that many people, your average
> consumer whatever, are using their smartphones and tablets more to
> access internet stuff.
>
> But, there's a whole lot of things I do with a computer that are simply
> not practically or ergonomically appropriate for a tablet or phone.
> I'm certainly not going to hack on a phone, or work on a tablet.
> I am a professional translator, hobby web/software developer.
> I type thousands of words/day for my work, and need a real keyboard,
> not some 5inch touchpad on a phone.

Are you not aware that, by using an OTG cable, you can attach a
full-size USB keyboard to a phone or tablet?

> I mean, are people going to write their thesis on a tablet?

Could be.

> And that's just writing stuff...what about all the complex
> mathematical stuff done in the sciences...
> I don't think astronomers are going to be crunching Hubble data on an
> iPhone.

The iPhone is not the be-all and end-all of "personal" computing
devices. Will we always need supercomputers? Sure.

> I DO use forums, friendica, redmatrix, libertree, pumpio, statusnet,
> and other free/open source, decentralized, federated networking
> platforms, however.
>
> No borrowed "cloud" storage, either. I will host and control my own
> data, thank you.

Will you take it with you you go? (Younger) People want access to their
data they are.

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Anthony Baldwin-2 Anthony Baldwin-2
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Re: low traffic lately?

On 1/26/2014 9:40 AM, Pikov Andropov wrote:
> Anthony Baldwin has written on 1/26/2014 12:01 AM:
>>
>>
>> No borrowed "cloud" storage, either. I will host and control my own
>> data, thank you.
>
> Will you take it with you you go? (Younger) People want access to their
> data they are.
>
I have a server in my home office, and anything I may need remote access
to, I can store there, or, of course, I can access my main desktop, as
well, over ssh (yes, even from my android phone).
Of course, not everybody has a server running in their house.

Tony
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translations, localization,
multilingual web development
EN, ES, FR, PT
203-759-8352

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Anthony Baldwin-2 Anthony Baldwin-2
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by TomD
On 1/26/2014 5:40 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

> Hi :)
> I was reading somewhere (or perhaps in a film) that Facebook considers
> itself to have reached "market saturation" once 55% of the people in a
> country/university/other-sample are using it.  Continued investment in
> marketing brings diminishing returns so they cut their advertising
> budget there (just enough to keep it "ticking over") and increase
> their advertising budget elsewhere.
>
> Anyway, this thread wasn't meant to be about bashing social media.
> Obviously quite a LOT of us on this list feel much the same way
> otherwise we would probably have moved over by now.  A lot of people
> DO like social media so i think it's good that TDF has given them a
> way of getting help using that sort of method.  Like most things i'd
> be surprised if it was perfectly set-up first time but hopefully there
> is some way of reporting problems or suggesting new features and maybe
> people might see some of those get resolved.
>


I think it's telling that seemingly the vast majority of questions there
go unanswered.
People that know what they're doing with this software are the ones
that prefer a mailing list, apparently.
Questions get answered here.

Tony
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multilingual web development
EN, ES, FR, PT
203-759-8352

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Robert Holtzman Robert Holtzman
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Re: low traffic lately?

In reply to this post by James E Lang-2
On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 03:19:09PM -0800, James E Lang wrote:

>
>
> --
> Jim
>
>
> Tom Davies <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >Hi :)
> >Does anyone else feel we have had very low traffic over the last few
> >weeks?  yet many answers going unanswered?
>
> Is this a result of having to "reply all" to get the answer automatically sent to the list?
>
> I have been led to believe that "reply all" should be used sparingly and that its indiscriminate use is rude.

Any decent mail client, as opposed to the current crop of online click
and drool programs, have the ability of replying directly to the list.

--
Bob Holtzman
Your mail is being read by tight lipped
NSA agents who fail to see humor in Doctor
Strangelove
Key ID 8D549279

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