membership application/language and supporters

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Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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membership application/language and supporters

Hi all,

When inviting people in the Dutch language community to consider
membership of TDF, two items showed up.

1. Not all active people are familiar enough with the beautiful English
language to feel comfortable to use the application page (& related info).
   > has partial translation been considered, and if not, can it be?

2. Not all supporters are active in a way that they feel like applying
form membership.
   > the idea 'supportive membership' has been mentioned before.
   Has it been discussed too?

thanks !

--
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org


Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Cor Nouws <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> When inviting people in the Dutch language community to consider membership
> of TDF, two items showed up.
>
> 1. Not all active people are familiar enough with the beautiful English
> language to feel comfortable to use the application page (& related info).
>  > has partial translation been considered, and if not, can it be?

From a practical stand-point, the only actual prerogative of members
is their ability to vote for BoD and MC.
How could one make an educated decision as to whom to vote for without
basic understanding of who the candidates are and what they stand for,
hence, in most case, without understanding of basic English ?

>
> 2. Not all supporters are active in a way that they feel like applying form
> membership.
>  > the idea 'supportive membership' has been mentioned before.
>  Has it been discussed too?

I'm not sure what that means... can you elaborate ?

Norbert

PS: I do think that current member should 'invite' people they know to
be active to become member (and drop a heads-up/recommendation email
to the membership committee).
PS2: the main problem with non-conventional 'activity' is the ability
of the MC to objectively measure it... having existing member vouching
for such activities would go a long way, I think, in making that
happen.

sophi sophi
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

Hi Norbert,
On 22/05/2012 14:19, Norbert Thiebaud wrote:

> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 3:57 AM, Cor Nouws<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> When inviting people in the Dutch language community to consider membership
>> of TDF, two items showed up.
>>
>> 1. Not all active people are familiar enough with the beautiful English
>> language to feel comfortable to use the application page (&  related info).
>>   >  has partial translation been considered, and if not, can it be?
>  From a practical stand-point, the only actual prerogative of members
> is their ability to vote for BoD and MC.
> How could one make an educated decision as to whom to vote for without
> basic understanding of who the candidates are and what they stand for,
> hence, in most case, without understanding of basic English ?
This is what language communities are supposed to do : give those who
don't speak English a chance to be part of the project. We can't rely
only on English speaking people to grow the community and represent it
every where in the world. This is why settling each of our actions on an
i18n point of view first is very important.
>
>> 2. Not all supporters are active in a way that they feel like applying form
>> membership.
>>   >  the idea 'supportive membership' has been mentioned before.
>>   Has it been discussed too?
> I'm not sure what that means... can you elaborate ?
a recognition also for those who don't fall in our meritocratic criteria
or don't want to sign for our charter while participating to the project
in other or more external ways.

Kind regards
Sophie


Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 5:36 AM, sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is what language communities are supposed to do : give those who don't
> speak English a chance to be part of the project. We can't rely only on
> English speaking people to grow the community and represent it every where
> in the world. This is why settling each of our actions on an i18n point of
> view first is very important.

That conjure to me the following quote (from a brazillian TDF member
on the aooo-dev ML)

"4 - Suddenly, TDF was requesting that every person who wanted to be called
a "contributor" should fill a agreement request in order to be
"recognized". So we became to be concerned about that huge amount of people
who contributed and didn't want to fill a formal agreement to a foreign
organization that don't speak their language and has a lot of "channels",
many of them obscured.
5 - In addition, people who we were fighting bacame key persons in TDF. One
of them became a "brazilian" member of the BoD, with 70 votes, when
brazilian accepted members in Brazil were less than 15 and most of them
didn't vote for him."

Which, to me, indicate that the language barrier is being use and
abuse to mislead (*), and the underlying 'nationalism' is disturbing
to me. the notion the TDF should be the UN with 'national
representative' is pretty scary (**) :-(

Norbert

(*) TDF does not _require_ anything to 'contribute'. for code
contribution we ask for the proper licensing... but that is true of
nay project.
member need to be contributors but contributors are not required to be
member. For instance last time I checked Tor is not a member, yet he
is undeniably a contributor.
Sure, to become a member, one is asked to agree to the tenet of the
organization one want to become a member of... nothing shocking about
that...

(**) the notion of 'brazillian' member is shocking to me, just like
the notion of 'French' member or 'Finnish' member... a member is a
member, his national origin is irrelevant.
And voting for a BoD member based on such irrelevant criteria is
disturbing to me.

sophi sophi
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

Hi Norbert,
On 22/05/2012 15:25, Norbert Thiebaud wrote:

> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 5:36 AM, sophie<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> This is what language communities are supposed to do : give those who don't
>> speak English a chance to be part of the project. We can't rely only on
>> English speaking people to grow the community and represent it every where
>> in the world. This is why settling each of our actions on an i18n point of
>> view first is very important.
> That conjure to me the following quote (from a brazillian TDF member
> on the aooo-dev ML)
>
> "4 - Suddenly, TDF was requesting that every person who wanted to be called
> a "contributor" should fill a agreement request in order to be
> "recognized". So we became to be concerned about that huge amount of people
> who contributed and didn't want to fill a formal agreement to a foreign
> organization that don't speak their language and has a lot of "channels",
> many of them obscured.
> 5 - In addition, people who we were fighting bacame key persons in TDF. One
> of them became a "brazilian" member of the BoD, with 70 votes, when
> brazilian accepted members in Brazil were less than 15 and most of them
> didn't vote for him."
>
> Which, to me, indicate that the language barrier is being use and
> abuse to mislead (*), and the underlying 'nationalism' is disturbing
> to me. the notion the TDF should be the UN with 'national
> representative' is pretty scary (**) :-(
It's about languages, nothing else. And yes the language is a barrier
for a lot of people who wants to feel part of our project.

>
> Norbert
>
> (*) TDF does not _require_ anything to 'contribute'. for code
> contribution we ask for the proper licensing... but that is true of
> nay project.
> member need to be contributors but contributors are not required to be
> member. For instance last time I checked Tor is not a member, yet he
> is undeniably a contributor.
> Sure, to become a member, one is asked to agree to the tenet of the
> organization one want to become a member of... nothing shocking about
> that...
It's about recognition, not contribution ability.
>
> (**) the notion of 'brazillian' member is shocking to me, just like
> the notion of 'French' member or 'Finnish' member... a member is a
> member, his national origin is irrelevant.
> And voting for a BoD member based on such irrelevant criteria is
> disturbing to me.
His language is relevant and we should take care that he is able to
access the information we provide in English. The language communities
are the bridge we need for that. They are a rare resource for the
plurality and the creativity in our whole project and this is important
that we consider those communities when we want to share what we are
doing and aiming as a Foundation, and when we want to recognize their
participation, at any level.
Kind regards
Sophie


Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

In reply to this post by Norbert Thiebaud
Hello Norbert, Cor, all,

Le mardi 22 mai 2012 à 08:25 -0500, Norbert Thiebaud a écrit :

> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 5:36 AM, sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > This is what language communities are supposed to do : give those who don't
> > speak English a chance to be part of the project. We can't rely only on
> > English speaking people to grow the community and represent it every where
> > in the world. This is why settling each of our actions on an i18n point of
> > view first is very important.
>
> That conjure to me the following quote (from a brazillian TDF member
> on the aooo-dev ML)
>
> "4 - Suddenly, TDF was requesting that every person who wanted to be called
> a "contributor" should fill a agreement request in order to be
> "recognized". So we became to be concerned about that huge amount of people
> who contributed and didn't want to fill a formal agreement to a foreign
> organization that don't speak their language and has a lot of "channels",
> many of them obscured.
> 5 - In addition, people who we were fighting bacame key persons in TDF. One
> of them became a "brazilian" member of the BoD, with 70 votes, when
> brazilian accepted members in Brazil were less than 15 and most of them
> didn't vote for him."
>
> Which, to me, indicate that the language barrier is being use and
> abuse to mislead (*), and the underlying 'nationalism' is disturbing
> to me. the notion the TDF should be the UN with 'national
> representative' is pretty scary (**) :-(
>
> Norbert
>
> (*) TDF does not _require_ anything to 'contribute'. for code
> contribution we ask for the proper licensing... but that is true of
> nay project.
> member need to be contributors but contributors are not required to be
> member. For instance last time I checked Tor is not a member, yet he
> is undeniably a contributor.
> Sure, to become a member, one is asked to agree to the tenet of the
> organization one want to become a member of... nothing shocking about
> that...
>
> (**) the notion of 'brazillian' member is shocking to me, just like
> the notion of 'French' member or 'Finnish' member... a member is a
> member, his national origin is irrelevant.
> And voting for a BoD member based on such irrelevant criteria is
> disturbing to me.
>

I'll try to go back to the initial two questions. The first one, the one
of the language, is an important one. To my very own surprise (and
partial misunderstanding) we have lots of enthusiastic volunteers who
*do and contribute* lots of efforts but are almost fully unable to
interact with the English language. This in turn brings many undesired
effect, such as the lack of recognition and the lack of awareness of
TDF's affairs. I don't believe that it's a matter of nationalism. Of
course you will always find rotten apples in every discussion and every
group. But the lack of fluency in English is a problem and while we
cannot provide English lessons to people, we ought to have tools that
allow for a reasonable understanding of at least important matters, and
have local communities that can use one or more proxy to understand
what's going on. Worldwide communities are full of resources for us:
developers, QA testers, documentation writers, localizers, marketers,
extension writers... All of them grow our ecosystem, expand our reach,
and by doing so are a vital part of the community. Never forget about
what made the success of OpenOffice.org in the first place: not its
development methods, but its ability to permeate every market and user
base thanks to a huge, ubiquitous and enthusiastic community. So if we
can, say, translate a certain page such as the membership application
page or have a process ready for people who are active but who cannot
interact well with English, the MC should work on this.

On Cor's second question, I read it in two very different ways. One way
to understand the issue is that we have people who don't feel they
qualify so they would like a different kind of membership. I think that,
just like what's written in the bylaws, membership is something you
earn, not something you can just ask for. But I'm sure we can come up
with a different term, because I also don't wish to downgrade the value
of membership by watering it down with other kinds of membership. "Fan
of LibreOffice", for instance, etc.  One reminder though: I think the
criteria for membership are quite broad, and I think the real issue is
that people don't apply, not that they get frustrated because they are
rejected. The second way for me to read this is that I think this
question outlines the need for more structure inside the LibreOffice
project (no, not Red Tape) . Structure as in, having roles that are
existing in fact, but never recognized with a small signature or just
clearly marked on a page. Case in point? The localiers; we may want to
have a "french l10n team" for instance, and he/she does not have a to be
a TDF member for that. We ought to have a clear "Documentation Team
leader" (yes Jean, I know, I know ;-) )and so on and so forth. I
actually think that's the real question, which is how we acknowledge our
contributors in a more proactive and "daily" fashion; the TDF membership
is a rather powerful tool, but it is of limited use on a daily basis
inside the project.

My two eurocents,


--
Charles-H. Schulz
Co-Founder & Director, The Document Foundation,
Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint




Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

Hi all,

Thanks for the thoughts...

Charles-H.Schulz wrote (22-05-12 18:43)

> I'll try to go back to the initial two questions. The first one, the one
> of the language, is an important one. To my very own surprise (and
> partial misunderstanding) we have lots of enthusiastic volunteers who
> *do and contribute* lots of efforts but are almost fully unable to
> interact with the English language. This in turn brings many undesired
> effect, such as the lack of recognition and the lack of awareness of
> [...]
> base thanks to a huge, ubiquitous and enthusiastic community. So if we
> can, say, translate a certain page such as the membership application
> page or have a process ready for people who are active but who cannot
> interact well with English, the MC should work on this.

Or/and the Membership Committee could, after the initial steps, bring
the idea to the l10n lists, just to let the ones that want it, translate
some part.
And indeed, Norbert, this implies that people with a particular language
help each other to understand the various topics.

> On Cor's second question, I read it in two very different ways. One way
> to understand the issue is that we have people who don't feel they
> qualify so they would like a different kind of membership. I think that,
> just like what's written in the bylaws, membership is something you
> earn, not something you can just ask for. But I'm sure we can come up
> with a different term, because I also don't wish to downgrade the value
> of membership by watering it down with other kinds of membership. "Fan
> of LibreOffice", for instance, etc.

Yes, using the term 'member' would be inappropriate. It's about
supporters: people that are not active, but want to express their
support in a clear way.

> One reminder though: I think the
> criteria for membership are quite broad, and I think the real issue is
> that people don't apply, not that they get frustrated because they are
> rejected.
> [...]

AFAIAA, that does not play any role for the situations that I want to solve.

> The second way for me to read this is that I think this
> [...]

Was not what I had in mind.

Kind regards,

--
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org


drew-gmail drew-gmail
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

In reply to this post by Norbert Thiebaud
On Tue, 2012-05-22 at 08:25 -0500, Norbert Thiebaud wrote:

> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 5:36 AM, sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > This is what language communities are supposed to do : give those who don't
> > speak English a chance to be part of the project. We can't rely only on
> > English speaking people to grow the community and represent it every where
> > in the world. This is why settling each of our actions on an i18n point of
> > view first is very important.
>
> That conjure to me the following quote (from a brazillian TDF member
> on the aooo-dev ML)
>
> "4 - Suddenly, TDF was requesting that every person who wanted to be called
> a "contributor" should fill a agreement request in order to be
> "recognized". So we became to be concerned about that huge amount of people
> who contributed and didn't want to fill a formal agreement to a foreign
> organization that don't speak their language and has a lot of "channels",
> many of them obscured.
> 5 - In addition, people who we were fighting bacame key persons in TDF. One
> of them became a "brazilian" member of the BoD, with 70 votes, when
> brazilian accepted members in Brazil were less than 15 and most of them
> didn't vote for him."
>
> Which, to me, indicate that the language barrier is being use and
> abuse to mislead (*), and the underlying 'nationalism' is disturbing
> to me. the notion the TDF should be the UN with 'national
> representative' is pretty scary (**) :-(
>
Hi Norbert

I think you make too much of the statement from one person. Some people
will leave in a huff, no matter what policies are in place.

I also think that what you refer to as a problem with Nationalism is
not, rather it is a problem with external organizations, and the
relationship between them and TDF. No place is this more true, currently
then in Brazil, but it is not exclusive to Brazil. It is true that these
secondary (from the TDF perspective) organizations are predominantly
defined, partly, by location and therefore Nation.


//drew



>
> (*) TDF does not _require_ anything to 'contribute'. for code
> contribution we ask for the proper licensing... but that is true of
> nay project.
> member need to be contributors but contributors are not required to be
> member. For instance last time I checked Tor is not a member, yet he
> is undeniably a contributor.
> Sure, to become a member, one is asked to agree to the tenet of the
> organization one want to become a member of... nothing shocking about
> that...
>
> (**) the notion of 'brazillian' member is shocking to me, just like
> the notion of 'French' member or 'Finnish' member... a member is a
> member, his national origin is irrelevant.
> And voting for a BoD member based on such irrelevant criteria is
> disturbing to me.
>



Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 5:59 AM, drew jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 2012-05-22 at 08:25 -0500, Norbert Thiebaud wrote:
>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 5:36 AM, sophie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > This is what language communities are supposed to do : give those who don't
>> > speak English a chance to be part of the project. We can't rely only on
>> > English speaking people to grow the community and represent it every where
>> > in the world. This is why settling each of our actions on an i18n point of
>> > view first is very important.
>>
>> That conjure to me the following quote (from a brazillian TDF member
>> on the aooo-dev ML)
>>
>> "4 - Suddenly, TDF was requesting that every person who wanted to be called
>> a "contributor" should fill a agreement request in order to be
>> "recognized". So we became to be concerned about that huge amount of people
>> who contributed and didn't want to fill a formal agreement to a foreign
>> organization that don't speak their language and has a lot of "channels",
>> many of them obscured.
>> 5 - In addition, people who we were fighting bacame key persons in TDF. One
>> of them became a "brazilian" member of the BoD, with 70 votes, when
>> brazilian accepted members in Brazil were less than 15 and most of them
>> didn't vote for him."
>>
>> Which, to me, indicate that the language barrier is being use and
>> abuse to mislead (*), and the underlying 'nationalism' is disturbing
>> to me. the notion the TDF should be the UN with 'national
>> representative' is pretty scary (**) :-(
>>
> Hi Norbert
>
> I think you make too much of the statement from one person. Some people
> will leave in a huff, no matter what policies are in place.

Drew,

I quoted the statement above not for the specific of the case but for
its illustration value:

>
> I also think that what you refer to as a problem with Nationalism is
> not,

let me narrow the quote:
"One of them became a "brazilian" member of the BoD, with 70 votes, when
brazilian accepted members in Brazil were less than 15 and most of them
didn't vote for him.""

isn't the author arguing that a BoD candidat that happen to have
nationality X must have the majority support of the members that also
share that irrelevant trait.
and reciprocally, isn't the author complaining that the artificial (in
our context) subgroup defined by that irrelevant criteria is not
properly represented as such ?

Considering that the irrelevant criteria in question is 'National
Origin', how is Nationalism not an accurate description ? Maybe
'Chauvinism' ?

To go back to the original issue:

1/ I have no problem with TDF developing alternative way to
'recognize' people. But that is more a Internal Marketing/Community
Management topic than a MC topic.
2/ Volunteer can translate and help people that do not know any
English, including our Statue/Bylaw and other Foundation related
document, actually I'd encourage that, as it would help avoid some
confusion, apparently.
3/ I have a practical problem receiving Application/Renewal request in
anything but English. English is _not_ my native language, but that is
a practical, and relatively simple(*), working language. And as much
as I would like to, I cannot be expected to speak all the language of
the planet, nor is any MC member. So, official/formal communication,
like membership application and renewal, must practically be en
English. I'm very open to review and correction so that we avoid
Idioms and other complex formulation is such documents, but it shall
still be in English nonetheless.

(*)I've dabbled with few languages, by curiosity... I took German and
Latin in  middle school, I did a short stint of Spanish.. I even
glanced at Russian, Japanese and Chinese...
English, as it turns out if a pretty simple language. Very little
grammar, almost no conjugation, no declination, fairly limited
vocabulary... as a consequence it is fairly easy - compared to other
languages -  to reach a level that allow written communication.

Norbert

Cor Nouws Cor Nouws
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

Hi Norbert,

Norbert Thiebaud wrote (23-05-12 16:47)

> To go back to the original issue:

Hé, that was mine ;-)

> 1/ I have no problem with TDF developing alternative way to
> 'recognize' people. But that is more a Internal Marketing/Community
> Management topic than a MC topic.

My idea is the other way round: give people other ways to 'recognise' TDF.
Usually people see becoming a member as an act of supporting.
I would love to see that people, that can not (at a time) be, or do not
want to be member, can become "supporter" or something.

> 2/ Volunteer can translate and help people that do not know any
> English, including our Statue/Bylaw and other Foundation related
> document, actually I'd encourage that, as it would help avoid some
> confusion, apparently.

OK.

> 3/ I have a practical problem receiving Application/Renewal request in
> anything but English. English is _not_ my native language, but that is
> a practical, and relatively simple(*), working language. And as much
> as I would like to, I cannot be expected to speak all the language of
> the planet, nor is any MC member. So, official/formal communication,
> like membership application and renewal, must practically be en
> English. I'm very open to review and correction so that we avoid
> Idioms and other complex formulation is such documents, but it shall
> still be in English nonetheless.

I agree here too.

Cheers,
--
  - Cor
  - http://nl.libreoffice.org


Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

Hello,

I would like to second Charles' thoughts.

While the legal authority language is German, as we are based in
Germany, the main language of correspondence inside the BoD's bodies,
and also towards our members, is English, since that's the lowest common
denominator most of us share, and it makes reviewing, archiving and
reading decisions and minutes much easier, also for the following MC and
BoD.

However, most of us is not all of us, and indeed it is one of our
strenghts that we have a wide, open and diverse community, active in
many countries and on many languages. I really feel uncomfortable
excluding people who contribute to the success of LibreOffice and the
foundation, "just" because they don't speak English.

While of course the main language of the MC should be English, finding
ways of having "proxies", people helping to translate, would be very
much welcome.

I think practically, we can do it similar to the statutes. The
"official" form and rules are in English, but for convenience, we can
provide localized versions, given we find volunteers to translate them.
The "binding" variants, however, should solely be the English ones then
(except for legal texts, but that's another topic I don't want to touch
here...).

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:41 AM, Florian Effenberger
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> However, most of us is not all of us, and indeed it is one of our strenghts
> that we have a wide, open and diverse community, active in many countries
> and on many languages. I really feel uncomfortable excluding people who
> contribute to the success of LibreOffice and the foundation, "just" because
> they don't speak English.

Just to be clear: It is not my position that we should be
"excluding people who contribute to the success of LibreOffice and the
foundation, "just" because they don't speak English."

But, as far as communication with the MC, for membership purpose, I do
not want to put the burden on the MC to find translator to be able to
handle request in any languages.
Presumably someone, who does not speak English, must be active and
interacting with other local people, and surely at least one of them
must speak enough English to help them fill the form properly, and
decode the answer they receive from the MC.

>
> While of course the main language of the MC should be English, finding ways
> of having "proxies", people helping to translate, would be very much
> welcome.
I would suggest that the burden to find such proxy is on the
applicant... and that is actually an exhibit of proper interaction
with the community.

>
> I think practically, we can do it similar to the statutes. The "official"
> form and rules are in English, but for convenience, we can provide localized
> versions, given we find volunteers to translate them. The "binding"
> variants, however, should solely be the English ones then (except for legal
> texts, but that's another topic I don't want to touch here...).

Agreed, but without exception :-)

Norbert

Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

Hi Norbert,

Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2012-05-30 17:37:

> Just to be clear: It is not my position that we should be
> "excluding people who contribute to the success of LibreOffice and the
> foundation, "just" because they don't speak English."

oh, no, don't get me wrong - didn't want to put words in your mouths.
:-) Just summed things up, exaggerating a bit, to make my point clear.

> But, as far as communication with the MC, for membership purpose, I do
> not want to put the burden on the MC to find translator to be able to
> handle request in any languages.

I see it similar - the main and primary language of the MC, for internal
as well as external communication should be English, and it's not the
MC's duty to find translators. Of course, looking at the current
composition of the MC, we have members inside who speak German, Dutch
and French at least, so if they would volunteer to act as gateway, that
would be appreciated. Of course, I know you all are busy as many active
TDF members, so getting in externals for that task is also worthwile.

> I would suggest that the burden to find such proxy is on the
> applicant... and that is actually an exhibit of proper interaction
> with the community.

Agreed.

>> I think practically, we can do it similar to the statutes. The "official"
>> form and rules are in English, but for convenience, we can provide localized
>> versions, given we find volunteers to translate them. The "binding"
>> variants, however, should solely be the English ones then (except for legal
>> texts, but that's another topic I don't want to touch here...).
>
> Agreed, but without exception :-)

:-)

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
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Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint

de-jourdain de-jourdain
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

Hi All,

2012/5/31 Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
Hi Norbert,

Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2012-05-30 17:37:


Just to be clear: It is not my position that we should be "excluding people who contribute to the success of LibreOffice and the foundation, "just" because they don't speak English."

oh, no, don't get me wrong - didn't want to put words in your mouths. :-) Just summed things up, exaggerating a bit, to make my point clear.


But, as far as communication with the MC, for membership purpose, I do not want to put the burden on the MC to find translator to be able to handle request in any languages.

I see it similar - the main and primary language of the MC, for internal as well as external communication should be English, and it's not the MC's duty to find translators. Of course, looking at the current composition of the MC, we have members inside who speak German, Dutch and French at least, so if they would volunteer to act as gateway, that would be appreciated. Of course, I know you all are busy as many active TDF members, so getting in externals for that task is also worthwile.

If the MC need help to translation, I think I can help, 'cause I have knowledge in some languages. I already had offered my help in another situation and I offer again, if the MC wishes.

Best,

David
 
I would suggest that the burden to find such proxy is on the applicant... and that is actually an exhibit of proper interaction with the community.

Agreed.


I think practically, we can do it similar to the statutes. The "official" form and rules are in English, but for convenience, we can provide localized versions, given we find volunteers to translate them. The "binding" variants, however, should solely be the English ones then (except for legal texts, but that's another topic I don't want to touch here...).

Agreed, but without exception :-)

:-)


Florian

--
Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board
Tel: <a href="tel:%2B49%208341%2099660880" value="+49834199660880" target="_blank">+49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: <a href="tel:%2B49%20151%2014424108" value="+4915114424108" target="_blank">+49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
Norbert Thiebaud Norbert Thiebaud
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 7:55 AM, David Emmerich Jourdain
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> If the MC need help to translation, I think I can help, 'cause I have
> knowledge in some languages. I already had offered my help in another
> situation and I offer again, if the MC wishes.

As I said earlier, that should not emanate from the MC....

What you are welcomed to do is to work within the community to let
them know that you can help them interact in English with the MC if
they need it.
Doing so will help the MC and also that means that you would probably
have a better understanding of who the candidate are and what they
did, so the MC can ping you for clarification if need be.

The other thing, which is not MC-related, is to make sure that the
statues are translated and available... on the Wiki I supposed would
be a nice place for them...

Norbert

sophi sophi
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi all,
On 31/05/2012 14:10, Florian Effenberger wrote:

> Hi Norbert,
>
> Norbert Thiebaud wrote on 2012-05-30 17:37:
>
>> Just to be clear: It is not my position that we should be
>> "excluding people who contribute to the success of LibreOffice and the
>> foundation, "just" because they don't speak English."
>
> oh, no, don't get me wrong - didn't want to put words in your mouths.
> :-) Just summed things up, exaggerating a bit, to make my point clear.
>
>> But, as far as communication with the MC, for membership purpose, I do
>> not want to put the burden on the MC to find translator to be able to
>> handle request in any languages.
>
> I see it similar - the main and primary language of the MC, for
> internal as well as external communication should be English, and it's
> not the MC's duty to find translators. Of course, looking at the
> current composition of the MC, we have members inside who speak
> German, Dutch and French at least, so if they would volunteer to act
> as gateway, that would be appreciated. Of course, I know you all are
> busy as many active TDF members, so getting in externals for that task
> is also worthwile.
>
>> I would suggest that the burden to find such proxy is on the
>> applicant... and that is actually an exhibit of proper interaction
>> with the community.
>
> Agreed.
I think you didn't get me right. The purpose of the language communities
is to provide information about the overall project and help all the
members, whatever the language, feel at home and happy to participate
and contribute. There is no burden on any sides, it's inside the
language communities that the exchange and help should take place to
bridge with the other parts, should it be the MC, the board, the
documentation or the design part.
What we need is some abilities to provide localization (like in QA or on
the wiki) in order to inform and attract a large variety of members, but
if the communication goes well, membership committee will never be
concerned by translating applications. Again, that's exactly the purpose
and the aim of the language communities.

Kind regards
Sophie


Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: membership application/language and supporters

Hi,

sophie wrote on 2012-05-31 17:23:
> What we need is some abilities to provide localization (like in QA or on
> the wiki) in order to inform and attract a large variety of members, but
> if the communication goes well, membership committee will never be
> concerned by translating applications. Again, that's exactly the purpose
> and the aim of the language communities.

isn't that what I proposed? :-)

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany
Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint