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Michael Meeks Michael Meeks
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new features page ...

Hi there,

        I was browsing the new features page: which is something we want to be
directing lots of interested journalists and others to over the next
days and weeks; and I was wondering if it could be improved.

        comparing:

http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features/

        to

http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/features/3.3/index.html

        I must confess I prefer the latter :-(

        eg. I love the work the l10n team does; it is a vital part of what we
do - but it is also something that people take for granted as in "it
should just work in my language" - ie. they get upset only if it is not
there ;-)

        Would it be possible to move that to the bottom ?

        Then, there are some quite sexy new things we have that (IMHO) would
benefit from a screenshot; eg.

        * Caolan's new title-page dialog in writer (Format->Title Page)
        * And some of our import filters:
                + SVG, Works, Wordperfect, Lotus Word Pro
                + better EMF rendering
                + perhaps pictures of bundled extensions (?)

        Of course, I'd love to have the relevant files linked as well, so
people can try that out quickly ( cf. the obsolete
http://go-oo.org/discover ); IMHO that adds a lot.

        David / Christophe - any objections to this sort of change ? - we can
make screenshots small enough that there are few-to-no associated l10n
issues, and even (in my view) plain, flat rectangles, without beautiful
green drop-shadows (or whatever) would be rather good here (?)

        I'm happy to work on collecting the shots / files together.

        Thanks,

                Michael.

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sophi sophi
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Re: new features page ...

Hi all,
On 14/01/2011 17:16, Michael Meeks wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I was browsing the new features page: which is something we want to be
> directing lots of interested journalists and others to over the next
> days and weeks; and I was wondering if it could be improved.
>
> comparing:
>
> http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features/
>
> to
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/features/3.3/index.html
>
> I must confess I prefer the latter :-(

This list was only a support for work between doc/l10n/QA/marketing
projects, I think it's here by mistake.
>
> eg. I love the work the l10n team does; it is a vital part of what we
> do - but it is also something that people take for granted as in "it
> should just work in my language" - ie. they get upset only if it is not
> there ;-)
>
> Would it be possible to move that to the bottom ?

In my opinion, l10n part could be removed and we could let only what is
bug fixes or enhancements.
>
> Then, there are some quite sexy new things we have that (IMHO) would
> benefit from a screenshot; eg.
>
> * Caolan's new title-page dialog in writer (Format->Title Page)
> * And some of our import filters:
> + SVG, Works, Wordperfect, Lotus Word Pro
> + better EMF rendering
> + perhaps pictures of bundled extensions (?)

We are conducting a poll on the FR list on the top 5 LibO new functions
by our testers, so if it can help here is what we will highlight on the
site (no special order):

- Titles tree in the Navigator (it gets a big support :-)
- Dotted borders in Writer/Calc
- Autofilter enhancements
- Colored icons (big support too!)
- Presenter screen
- modification and re-export of svg files
- the + tab to add a sheet in Calc
- the Form entry in Calc menu
- Title page in Writer menu
- New shortcuts for delete cell content in Calc (vs legacy OOo ones)

Kind regards
Sophie



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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: new features page ...

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
Hi Michael, :-)

Thanks for these good ideas. Sure we can implement your suggestions.

If you want to help out with screenshots, that's fine, too. I've done
all screenshots under Ubuntu using the Ambiance theme, window only,
with window sized to 1000x750.

You can supply me with that shot and I'll do the rest (I produce a
downsize at 800x600 in png using Gimp, and then another png at 400x300
using Photoshop. Empirically, that seems to produce the best quality.

IMHO, it would be best to keep all the screenshots to this "uniform format".

Apart from that, we can format the layout the way you want it
(preferably without breaking out of the theme styles).

It would be great if we can work on this together, so that we get the
result you want.

David Nelson

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 22:16, Michael Meeks <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi there,
>
>        I was browsing the new features page: which is something we want to be
> directing lots of interested journalists and others to over the next
> days and weeks; and I was wondering if it could be improved.
>
>        comparing:
>
> http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features/
>
>        to
>
> http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/features/3.3/index.html
>
>        I must confess I prefer the latter :-(
>
>        eg. I love the work the l10n team does; it is a vital part of what we
> do - but it is also something that people take for granted as in "it
> should just work in my language" - ie. they get upset only if it is not
> there ;-)
>
>        Would it be possible to move that to the bottom ?
>
>        Then, there are some quite sexy new things we have that (IMHO) would
> benefit from a screenshot; eg.
>
>        * Caolan's new title-page dialog in writer (Format->Title Page)
>        * And some of our import filters:
>                + SVG, Works, Wordperfect, Lotus Word Pro
>                + better EMF rendering
>                + perhaps pictures of bundled extensions (?)
>
>        Of course, I'd love to have the relevant files linked as well, so
> people can try that out quickly ( cf. the obsolete
> http://go-oo.org/discover ); IMHO that adds a lot.
>
>        David / Christophe - any objections to this sort of change ? - we can
> make screenshots small enough that there are few-to-no associated l10n
> issues, and even (in my view) plain, flat rectangles, without beautiful
> green drop-shadows (or whatever) would be rather good here (?)
>
>        I'm happy to work on collecting the shots / files together.
>
>        Thanks,
>
>                Michael.

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marcpare4 marcpare4
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Re: new features page ...

Le 2011-01-14 09:43, David Nelson a écrit :

> Hi Michael, :-)
>
> Thanks for these good ideas. Sure we can implement your suggestions.
>
> If you want to help out with screenshots, that's fine, too. I've done
> all screenshots under Ubuntu using the Ambiance theme, window only,
> with window sized to 1000x750.
>
> You can supply me with that shot and I'll do the rest (I produce a
> downsize at 800x600 in png using Gimp, and then another png at 400x300
> using Photoshop. Empirically, that seems to produce the best quality.
>
> IMHO, it would be best to keep all the screenshots to this "uniform format".
>
> Apart from that, we can format the layout the way you want it
> (preferably without breaking out of the theme styles).
>
> It would be great if we can work on this together, so that we get the
> result you want.
>
> David Nelson
>
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 22:16, Michael Meeks<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>

If I were new to LibreOffice and dropped by this section, I would think
automatically of "New Features" compared to what? Was there a previous
version?

Perhaps this section should be re-titled to "Highlighted Features" (or
something like that). I still favour not comparing ourselves to OOo.
IMO, we should forge our own path and let other distro's try to keep
pace with us. At this point, we have the momentum, the interested
community contributors, and talented devs. Other distros should be
comparing themselves to us. I think this would be a better attitude to have.

As far as marketing, sure, we may compare ourselves to other distros,
OOo and MSO. This, IMO, would be better made on a page with a grid with
checkmarks as to what we offer compared to the other distros. We could
reference this page back to the "Highlighted Features" page.

Just my opinion.

Cheers

Marc


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Wheatbix Wheatbix
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Re: new features page ...

On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 12:42 AM, Marc Paré <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Le 2011-01-14 09:43, David Nelson a écrit :
>>
>> Hi Michael, :-)
>>
>> Thanks for these good ideas. Sure we can implement your suggestions.
>>
>> If you want to help out with screenshots, that's fine, too. I've done
>> all screenshots under Ubuntu using the Ambiance theme, window only,
>> with window sized to 1000x750.
>>
>> You can supply me with that shot and I'll do the rest (I produce a
>> downsize at 800x600 in png using Gimp, and then another png at 400x300
>> using Photoshop. Empirically, that seems to produce the best quality.
>>
>> IMHO, it would be best to keep all the screenshots to this "uniform
>> format".
>>
>> Apart from that, we can format the layout the way you want it
>> (preferably without breaking out of the theme styles).
>>
>> It would be great if we can work on this together, so that we get the
>> result you want.
>>
>> David Nelson
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 22:16, Michael Meeks<[hidden email]>
>>  wrote:
>>
>
> If I were new to LibreOffice and dropped by this section, I would think
> automatically of "New Features" compared to what? Was there a previous
> version?
>
> Perhaps this section should be re-titled to "Highlighted Features" (or
> something like that). I still favour not comparing ourselves to OOo. IMO, we
> should forge our own path and let other distro's try to keep pace with us.
> At this point, we have the momentum, the interested community contributors,
> and talented devs. Other distros should be comparing themselves to us. I
> think this would be a better attitude to have.
>
> As far as marketing, sure, we may compare ourselves to other distros, OOo
> and MSO. This, IMO, would be better made on a page with a grid with
> checkmarks as to what we offer compared to the other distros. We could
> reference this page back to the "Highlighted Features" page.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc

I agree with this concern. Yes we are using code from OpenOffice,
BrOffice and OOGo among others, but LibreOffice is a 'new product',
there has been no LibreOffice products before this one, hence we
actually don't have 'new features' just features which make
LibreOffice stand out from the crowd of Office suites.

Mike

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sophi sophi
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Re: new features page ...

Hi Marc, Michael,
On 14/01/2011 18:54, Michael Wheatland wrote:
[...]

>>
>> If I were new to LibreOffice and dropped by this section, I would think
>> automatically of "New Features" compared to what? Was there a previous
>> version?
>>
>> Perhaps this section should be re-titled to "Highlighted Features" (or
>> something like that). I still favour not comparing ourselves to OOo. IMO, we
>> should forge our own path and let other distro's try to keep pace with us.
>> At this point, we have the momentum, the interested community contributors,
>> and talented devs. Other distros should be comparing themselves to us. I
>> think this would be a better attitude to have.
>>
>> As far as marketing, sure, we may compare ourselves to other distros, OOo
>> and MSO. This, IMO, would be better made on a page with a grid with
>> checkmarks as to what we offer compared to the other distros. We could
>> reference this page back to the "Highlighted Features" page.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Marc
>
> I agree with this concern. Yes we are using code from OpenOffice,
> BrOffice and OOGo among others, but LibreOffice is a 'new product',
> there has been no LibreOffice products before this one, hence we
> actually don't have 'new features' just features which make
> LibreOffice stand out from the crowd of Office suites.

In fact what you and Marc says is not completely true.
We are also aiming to get our OOo users to migrate to LibO, and also
those who were currently studying their migration to OOo. Some of them
have shown there support and remember that TDF is the continuity, not a
breakage.
Migrating to OOo takes a long time, qualifying the version sometime take
one year to a company, several of them where on there way to finalize
there study because it was the right time (Windows Vista/7, new UI and
file format in 2010, the wave of OS in Europe, etc).

So highlighting the LibO specificities is good but should also ensure
the decision makers that we are on the same path and there will be no
learning curve necessary to use LibO instead of OOo, only some wanted
features (like the new shortcuts in Calc or the Form menu entry).

So you are right that New Features is not the right term, may be
Highlighted Features, like Marc was suggesting is much better.

As a side note, concerning BrOffice, this is only the branding that is
different because of a trademark issue, and a small amount of Go-oo
features have been incorporated for now. More will come later, once our
users base is consolidated.

Kind regards
Sophie

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Michael Meeks Michael Meeks
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Re: new features page ...

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hi guys,

On Fri, 2011-01-14 at 22:43 +0800, David Nelson wrote:
> Thanks for these good ideas. Sure we can implement your suggestions.

        Just an update, I comprehensively re-hashed the content on the new
features page; hopefully it is more accurate, complete and accessible to
the average reader (though, I suspect there is still a way to go there).

        David asked to add comments saying what screenshots / demo document
links might look good, under each section, hopefully they'll disappear
over the next days to be replaced with something beautiful.

        HTH,

                Michael.

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: new features page ...

In reply to this post by davidnelson
(CCing to design team to catch their attention ...)

Hi Michael, David, all!

great suggestion. It seems it pays off to bore you with all this UX
related stuff ;-))) And David, thanks for jumping in so quickly!

@ Sophie, Marc: I'll also refer to your posts, since it seems to make to
keep this information in one mail. So sorry for mis-threading in
advance ;-)

Am Freitag, den 14.01.2011, 22:43 +0800 schrieb David Nelson:

> Hi Michael, :-)
>
> Thanks for these good ideas. Sure we can implement your suggestions.
>
> If you want to help out with screenshots, that's fine, too. I've done
> all screenshots under Ubuntu using the Ambiance theme, window only,
> with window sized to 1000x750.
>
> You can supply me with that shot and I'll do the rest (I produce a
> downsize at 800x600 in png using Gimp, and then another png at 400x300
> using Photoshop. Empirically, that seems to produce the best quality.
>
> IMHO, it would be best to keep all the screenshots to this "uniform format".

Of course! And since you refer to "empirically", that's a great example
to document it in our upcoming wiki page (screenshot requirements).
Then, all the l10n teams can benefit. Although we should think about how
to do this with open-source tools (e.g. an image-magic script which can
be written?)

Since I've looked at the screenshots on the front page, I'd like to say
that the documents look that much (much!) better than before ... also
the Start Center (btw. not QuickStarter) looks better with some more
space around (the first picture).

But, only one picture doesn't fit that good - from the marketing's
perspective. Since we try to establish "our" branding, the following
picture is (although colorful) misleading how "we" look when installed.
It might be mis-interpreted as Splashscreen [0], so you mind to remove
it? Sorry to bother you with that :-\

If we finally have some time to take a deep breath (a few weeks maybe?),
I'd like to discuss the chosen theme. It seems a bit different to those
that are "default", and (although it looks great on the computer), the
dark title bars are a bit "visually heavy" and don't match to the
LibreOffice branding (draft) [1].

> Apart from that, we can format the layout the way you want it
> (preferably without breaking out of the theme styles).

See below, please ...

[...]
> > http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/features/3.3/index.html
> >
> >        I must confess I prefer the latter :-(

I put up a small graphic to show how a structure might look like - would
be great if Ivan could have a look at that, too. I think a subtle border
(gray) would help to overcome screenshot snippets problems.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/O-PELAb4LD61S9RPTFIW8Q?feat=directlink

Don't be scared by the colors, this is what we (UX people) use to
highlight elements within other pictures or draw structures. Of course,
the color theme of the website applies here.

@ Michael: The OOo features page seems a bit messy, since the pictures
have different width - there is no harmony. Moreover, the whole page
looks like to win the "most headers" award ;-)

David, might the structure above work with the site?

> >        eg. I love the work the l10n team does; it is a vital part of what we
> > do - but it is also something that people take for granted as in "it
> > should just work in my language" - ie. they get upset only if it is not
> > there ;-)
> >
> >        Would it be possible to move that to the bottom ?

I had a look at the page, and most probably we still miss a lot of users
and their interests (the very first item is "Load and Save ODF documents
in flat XML to make external XSLT processing easier"). This is
important, but for (business process) IT integration ... Also adding our
color palette is a minor improvement for the majority (literally nobody
will ever discover it, given our current palette management).

Also Marc and Sophie added very important thoughts ... and all are right
at the same time (from an UX perspective, but looking from different
user's point-of-views).

So here is my initial "flat list" proposal how the page can be
structured:
      * All Applications --> Major improvements shared by all
        applications
      * Writer (Word Processor)
      * Calc (Spreadsheet)
      * Impress (Presentation)
      * Draw (Vector Graphics)
      * Base (Database)
      * Math (Formula Editor)
      * Internationalization
      * Developer Features and Extensibility
      * More Improvements

All but the last category should only present a few improvements to
avoid boring people to death ;-) Pre-prioritizing helps them to quickly
decide "yes, that's worth to download". Let's say 3 ... 5 items per
category like Writer. And, one highlight item (e.g. "More familiar
keyboard shortcuts") might sum up some individual features (by the way,
more familiar to whom ...).

But since we also have people who want to deep-dive, there should be a
list of "small but important" items (More Improvements). Here, single
line statements like now are okay ... no need for pictures.

My assumptions / data:
      * You know the application descriptions (e.g. Vector Graphics?)
        much better ;-)
      * Order of applications (importance) survey used; see "Which
        OpenOffice.org application do you use or plan to use?":
        http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/f/fb/OOoUserSurvey2009_Final.ods
      * We currently keep the application based grouping (although its
        likely that new users will have their problems with that names
        only). Later we should move on to something more task oriented.


Well, we still miss the selected features that should go into the
categories. Here we can use the survey question: "In what areas would
you like to see improvements in OpenOffice.org?":
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/e/e6/OOoUserSurvey2008_Final.ods

Anybody one this list who can help to analyses the most important
features based on the document above, Sophie's FR poll list (other
mail), issue tracker numbers, or user support experience?

<fun>Of course, there is a need to include that great new printing
dialog [2] - whoever helped to shape that.</fun>

> >        Then, there are some quite sexy new things we have that (IMHO) would
> > benefit from a screenshot; eg.
> >
> >        * Caolan's new title-page dialog in writer (Format->Title Page)

Ah, so he is the one to prepare for a huge mail with feedback [3] to
keep him busy ;-)

> >        * And some of our import filters:
> >                + SVG, Works, Wordperfect, Lotus Word Pro
> >                + better EMF rendering
> >                + perhaps pictures of bundled extensions (?)

The term extensions doesn't help here ... maybe something like "Improved
Out-Of the Box Experience" and naming some of the important features
that are provided by extensions?

> >
> >        Of course, I'd love to have the relevant files linked as well, so
> > people can try that out quickly ( cf. the obsolete
> > http://go-oo.org/discover ); IMHO that adds a lot.

Mmh, seems that this list already considers a lot of my suggestions
above ;-) Cool page!

> >        David / Christophe - any objections to this sort of change ? - we can
> > make screenshots small enough that there are few-to-no associated l10n
> > issues, and even (in my view) plain, flat rectangles, without beautiful
> > green drop-shadows (or whatever) would be rather good here (?)

Very good! Shadows (if any) is up to Ivan, I'd say.


> >        I'm happy to work on collecting the shots / files together.

Last thing: Could you please keep the "New Features" (New Highlights) in
one place - currently it appears under "Download - New Features", and
"Features - New Features". Clicking on the latter "jumps" between
different categories - without the user's intention.

Okay, first iteration :-)

I hope some of the stuff helps a bit - although I'm unable to do the
feature selection stuff (sorry!), since we really have to continue with
the new MIME type icons to get that included [4]. I still have some
hope ...

@ Sophie, you mentioned the "colored icons" - does this refer to the
MIME type icons? If yes, then I'm unsure whether we should highlight
that if we ship the old icons (Sun S-curve branding, OOo branding
colors, seagulls).


Cheers,
Christoph


[0]
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/oSwkWTbgl3oUw-EYzldotA?feat=directlink

[1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#Branding

[2] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/printerpullpages

[3] http://www.mail-archive.com/design@.../msg00122.html

[4] http://picasaweb.google.com/noack.christoph/LibreOffice#


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sophi sophi
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features page ...

Hi Christoph,
On 15/01/2011 00:55, Christoph Noack wrote:
[...]
>
> @ Sophie, you mentioned the "colored icons" - does this refer to the
> MIME type icons? If yes, then I'm unsure whether we should highlight
> that if we ship the old icons (Sun S-curve branding, OOo branding
> colors, seagulls).
Currently, Picasa has a nice web album containing colored icons ;-) I
think FR members are following the progression of the MIME type icons
the design team is working on here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons
Won't they be incorporated in the final version?

Kind regards
Sophie

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features page ...

In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
Hi Christoph, :-)

I'll give some answers here but, as I suggested in another thread, I
think we can talk about these problems better and more quickly by
holding a website team confcall over the next few days, and regularly
once a week for the next 3 or 4 weeks...

@all: Do you think this is a good idea?

@Christoph: if so, would you set up a Doodle poll or do you want me to?


On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 05:55, Christoph Noack <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Of course! And since you refer to "empirically", that's a great example
> to document it in our upcoming wiki page (screenshot requirements).

Sure, OK. Like we said during the SC call, I'll let you put up an
initial page, and then I will get in there and contribute
ideas/content to that page.

> Then, all the l10n teams can benefit. Although we should think about how
> to do this with open-source tools (e.g. an image-magic script which can
> be written?)

Open Source tools are the ideal choice. But I find that *sometimes* I
seem to get better results from Photoshop for resizing things, in
terms of resulting file size and image quality.

> Since I've looked at the screenshots on the front page, I'd like to say
> that the documents look that much (much!) better than before ... also
> the Start Center (btw. not QuickStarter) looks better with some more
> space around (the first picture).

"Start Center"... good job you pointed that out... I'll remember.
Actually I deliberately enlarged the Start Center panel so that it
would stay properly readable at 400x300... you mean space around the
panel inside the window?

> But, only one picture doesn't fit that good - from the marketing's
> perspective. Since we try to establish "our" branding, the following
> picture is (although colorful) misleading how "we" look when installed.
> It might be mis-interpreted as Splashscreen [0], so you mind to remove
> it? Sorry to bother you with that :-\

I'm not able to figure out which image you're referring to... I use
Chrome, and use the "Awesome Screenshot" add-on, which lets me take
screenshots and annotate them.... I recommend it for this kind of
discussion. (Are attachments allowed on the design and website lists?)

> If we finally have some time to take a deep breath (a few weeks maybe?),
> I'd like to discuss the chosen theme. It seems a bit different to those
> that are "default", and (although it looks great on the computer), the
> dark title bars are a bit "visually heavy" and don't match to the
> LibreOffice branding (draft) [1].

Personally, I'm pretty happy with what has resulted from Nikash'
template and Ivan's work. It still needs a bit of tweaking and
finishing in places, but I feel it looks simple, clean and
conservative, yet up to date with modern design and tastes.

But this is a conversation that's basically between you and Ivan,
although I'll be looking with interest at the final results.

>> Apart from that, we can format the layout the way you want it
>> (preferably without breaking out of the theme styles).
>
> I put up a small graphic to show how a structure might look like - would
> be great if Ivan could have a look at that, too. I think a subtle border
> (gray) would help to overcome screenshot snippets problems.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/O-PELAb4LD61S9RPTFIW8Q?feat=directlink
>
> Don't be scared by the colors, this is what we (UX people) use to
> highlight elements within other pictures or draw structures. Of course,
> the color theme of the website applies here.

I think it looks good, but I wonder if we can achieve what you seem to
be thinking of here... the problem is that we're dealing with dialog
boxes of *different* sizes, some of which can be done under
Ubuntu/Linux but some of which intrinsically should be screenshot
under Windows because of the specific content matter.

But we can certainly put the screenshots on the left, in column form?
In any case, I suggest we talk about this during a confcall? Also, I
won't have time to get to this before mid-week (~ 20th) due to other
work...

> @ Michael: The OOo features page seems a bit messy, since the pictures
> have different width - there is no harmony. Moreover, the whole page
> looks like to win the "most headers" award ;-)
>
> David, might the structure above work with the site?

See my comment above, but I will certainly see how I can work your
suggestions into the content layout, for sure.

@MICHAEL: OK, on second thoughts, can you please do me any screenshots
you're able to provide? (Windows and any other OS)
But maybe try to avoid fancy one-off effects that break with the basic
visual design of the site?

Either mail them to me or insert them in the New Features page
yourself and then give me a heads up to go behind you and clean up.
TIA if so. ;-)

> Last thing: Could you please keep the "New Features" (New Highlights) in
> one place - currently it appears under "Download - New Features", and
> "Features - New Features". Clicking on the latter "jumps" between
> different categories - without the user's intention.

That was a special request from Michael Meeks! So, Michael?


> I hope some of the stuff helps a bit - although I'm unable to do the
> feature selection stuff (sorry!)

We'll try to get something that pleases everyone, but I must admit
that it seems logical to me that the devs should have biggest say in
what features to highlight before others in the New Features page...?

Anyway, thanks for the ideas. I'll certainly try to take account of
them. And I'll be hoping to talk more about them during a confcall.
;-)

David Nelson

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Re: new features page ...

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
2011.01.14. 15:16 keltezéssel, Michael Meeks írta:
>
> eg. I love the work the l10n team does; it is a vital part of what we
> do - but it is also something that people take for granted as in "it
> should just work in my language" - ie. they get upset only if it is not
> there ;-)
>
> Would it be possible to move that to the bottom ?

I think most of those lines should be removed.
Lines like "Foobar (fo) language updated" make little sense, because at
least 60 languages were updated, not only those that are listed there.
My solution is below.

Best regards,
Andras

=== Internationalization, Localization ===

* Updated translations (virtually all languages)

* Additional Locale Data

Arabic (Algeria) [ar-DZ], Bafia (Cameroon) [ksf-CM], Bushi (Mayotte)
[buc-YT], Campidanese (Sardinia) [sro-IT], Gallurese (Sardinia)
[sdn-IT], Gikuyu (Kenya) [ki-KE], Latgalian (Latvia) [ltg-LV],
Logudorese (Sardinia) [src-IT], Maithili (India) [mai-IN], Malagasy
Plateau (Madagascar) [plt-MG], Maore (Mayotte) [swb-YT], Papiamentu
(Netherlands Antilles) [pap-AN], Rusyn (Slovakia) [rue-SK], Rusyn
(Ukraine) [rue-UA], Sassarese (Sardinia)[sdc-IT], Sorbian, Tahitian
(French Polynesia) [ty-PF], Upper Sorbian (Germany) [hsb-DE], Yoruba
(Nigeria) [yo-NG]

* Support for Kabyle

* Updated dictionaries

Catalan [ca], Croatian [hr] (+ spelling dictionary added), Danish [da]
(+ thesaurus added), Dutch [nl], Hungarian [hu], Italian [it], Kurdish
[ku], Romanian [ro], Serbian [sr/sh], Slovenian [sl], Slovak [sk],
Swedish [sv], Vietnamese [vi]

* Updated AutoCorrection data

Afrikaans [af], Croatian [hr], English (South Africa) [en-ZA], French
[fr], Portuguese (Brazil) [pt-BR], German [de], Hungarian [hu],
Lithuanian [lt], Mongolian [mn], Polish [pl]


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Re: new features page ...

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
Also, please add:

Linux Libertine G and Linux Biolinum G fonts

Graphite port of Linux Libertine and Linux Biolinum. Fonts with
ligatures, true small caps, old style numbers, proportional or
monospaced numbers, automatic thousand separation, true superscript and
subscript, diagonal and nut fractions, different numbering styles:
number to number name conversion (in more than 20 languages), footnote
numbering styles, Greek letters; right aligned footnote numbers for
LibreOffice, etc. See also: http://www.numbertext.org/linux/

Thanks,
Andras

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Re: new features page ...

2011.01.15. 12:23 keltezéssel, Andras Timar írta:

> Also, please add:
>
> Linux Libertine G and Linux Biolinum G fonts
>
> Graphite port of Linux Libertine and Linux Biolinum. Fonts with
> ligatures, true small caps, old style numbers, proportional or
> monospaced numbers, automatic thousand separation, true superscript and
> subscript, diagonal and nut fractions, different numbering styles:
> number to number name conversion (in more than 20 languages), footnote
> numbering styles, Greek letters; right aligned footnote numbers for
> LibreOffice, etc. See also: http://www.numbertext.org/linux/
>
> Thanks,
> Andras
>
Ooops, sorry, it is there in the General section (while other font
related new features are in Productivity Enhancements section).

Andras

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Re: new features page ...

In reply to this post by Andras Timar
Hi Andras,

On 15/01/2011 14:23, Andras Timar wrote:

> Also, please add:
>
> Linux Libertine G and Linux Biolinum G fonts
>
> Graphite port of Linux Libertine and Linux Biolinum. Fonts with
> ligatures, true small caps, old style numbers, proportional or
> monospaced numbers, automatic thousand separation, true superscript and
> subscript, diagonal and nut fractions, different numbering styles:
> number to number name conversion (in more than 20 languages), footnote
> numbering styles, Greek letters; right aligned footnote numbers for
> LibreOffice, etc. See also: http://www.numbertext.org/linux/

Thanks for the feedback, also on the languages (I didn't finished the
list yet and I didn't think it would be published as is). I'm updating
the wiki page with your 2 mails, for future references.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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LibreOffice Initial Colors (Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features page ...)

In reply to this post by sophi
Hi Sophie!

Am Samstag, den 15.01.2011, 10:45 +0300 schrieb sophie:
> Hi Christoph,
> On 15/01/2011 00:55, Christoph Noack wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > @ Sophie, you mentioned the "colored icons" - does this refer to the
> > MIME type icons? If yes, then I'm unsure whether we should highlight
> > that if we ship the old icons (Sun S-curve branding, OOo branding
> > colors, seagulls).

> Currently, Picasa has a nice web album containing colored icons ;-) I
> think FR members are following the progression of the MIME type icons
> the design team is working on here:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/LibreOffice_Initial_Icons

Wow, great to hear!

> Won't they be incorporated in the final version?

To be honest, I hope they will be incorporated in a final version - but
currently it is unclear whether we can supply it for 3.3.0. I very much
hope that it'll be done, but - as far as I heard - we won't serve as a
blocker for the release :-)

At the moment, we still wait for some help by the development, but
nobody replied to Bernhard's mail yet ... we finally need somebody who
can help to dig out the naming scheme (every time I relied on public
information it was outdated ...) and to check in the icons. And somebody
who will test it.

Let's see ... I keep my fingers crossed.

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features page ...

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Hi David, Ivan, Michael, all!

Am Samstag, den 15.01.2011, 16:10 +0800 schrieb David Nelson:

[conf call proposal]

> @all: Do you think this is a good idea?

+1

> @Christoph: if so, would you set up a Doodle poll or do you want me to?

Here is the poll, but I have to admit that I've - to not miss anyone -
added all times (even those, I won't be available. So sorry for the many
options in advance ...
http://www.doodle.com/py7e7fku8p5v9v92

Currently, I don't have that much clue how to organize the call
(technically), because I'd like to focus on the icons today :-\ It would
be cool if you could ping Florian ...

It would be great to put up an agenda before our call - so that others
can follow our discussion or can add their own thoughts.

> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 05:55, Christoph Noack <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Of course! And since you refer to "empirically", that's a great example
> > to document it in our upcoming wiki page (screenshot requirements).
>
> Sure, OK. Like we said during the SC call, I'll let you put up an
> initial page, and then I will get in there and contribute
> ideas/content to that page.

Yep.

[...]

> > Since I've looked at the screenshots on the front page, I'd like to say
> > that the documents look that much (much!) better than before ... also
> > the Start Center (btw. not QuickStarter) looks better with some more
> > space around (the first picture).
>
> "Start Center"... good job you pointed that out... I'll remember.
> Actually I deliberately enlarged the Start Center panel so that it
> would stay properly readable at 400x300... you mean space around the
> panel inside the window?

Correct.

> > But, only one picture doesn't fit that good - from the marketing's
> > perspective. Since we try to establish "our" branding, the following
> > picture is (although colorful) misleading how "we" look when installed.
> > It might be mis-interpreted as Splashscreen [0], so you mind to remove
> > it? Sorry to bother you with that :-\
>
> I'm not able to figure out which image you're referring to... I use
> Chrome, and use the "Awesome Screenshot" add-on, which lets me take
> screenshots and annotate them.... I recommend it for this kind of
> discussion. (Are attachments allowed on the design and website lists?)

As far as I know: not supported. But this is why I added the reference
"[0]" within the text above, it corresponds to the links at the bottom
of this mail. This is pretty common on mailing lists - sorry for being
not that clear :-\

Thus, it is about: [0]
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/oSwkWTbgl3oUw-EYzldotA?feat=directlink


[... structure of the items on the features page ...]

> > http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/O-PELAb4LD61S9RPTFIW8Q?feat=directlink
> >
> > Don't be scared by the colors, this is what we (UX people) use to
> > highlight elements within other pictures or draw structures. Of course,
> > the color theme of the website applies here.
>
> I think it looks good, but I wonder if we can achieve what you seem to
> be thinking of here... the problem is that we're dealing with dialog
> boxes of *different* sizes, some of which can be done under
> Ubuntu/Linux but some of which intrinsically should be screenshot
> under Windows because of the specific content matter.

Oh, we may add the "language specific issue" here as well - some of the
international teams will have to re-create the screenshots. This is why
Michael (was it in his last mail in this thread?) talked about the
"l10n" issues - if possible, we should use only those parts of the
screen that are not locale specific (e.g. if graphics in Draw are
sufficient to show a certain behavior, then avoid any text).

Concerning the size - yes, practically there is a need for showing
different sizes. Let's state that a page "is good" if the width of the
picture column is fix (so that scrolling down does not "wobble" the page
content), then we can do:
      * Crop to the desired part of the screenshot
      * Resize the screenshot so that it fits to the width
      * Allow the height to be flexible

All of these items are (more or less strict) used on the OOo pages, but
- because of the less strict use - it still looks mediocre.

Ideally, the preview would provide the full screenshot to appear
(Christian worked on something like that before). And even more ideally,
users may just browse / being browsed through a collection of
screenshots (with some brief words) that "visually" explains the new
features. Oh, I seem to start dreaming :-) Just ideas...

> But we can certainly put the screenshots on the left, in column form?
> In any case, I suggest we talk about this during a confcall? Also, I
> won't have time to get to this before mid-week (~ 20th) due to other
> work...

Sure.

[...]

> @MICHAEL: OK, on second thoughts, can you please do me any screenshots
> you're able to provide? (Windows and any other OS)
> But maybe try to avoid fancy one-off effects that break with the basic
> visual design of the site?
>
> Either mail them to me or insert them in the New Features page
> yourself and then give me a heads up to go behind you and clean up.
> TIA if so. ;-)

Mmh, I'll skip that - we may even ask the local communities to provide
that (given some requirements how the screenshots should look like). I
bet that the FR community already did something like that.

> > Last thing: Could you please keep the "New Features" (New Highlights) in
> > one place - currently it appears under "Download - New Features", and
> > "Features - New Features". Clicking on the latter "jumps" between
> > different categories - without the user's intention.
>
> That was a special request from Michael Meeks! So, Michael?

I referred to it in my previous mail ... I haven't read the request by
Michael (sorry), but I think the basic ideas was to: "It would be good
if people can have a look at the features before downloading." That's
great, for sure.

But the kind of realization doesn't fit into our "hierarchically
presented" menu concept - so I propose a link like "See what you get!" /
"See what's in the box!" / "That's new" / "Know more about the
Features". Thus, the idea is great, but we can do better :-)

So back to the basic idea ... I think there will be a need (also on
other pages) to highlight certain things "on page". So I'd like to
propose some kind of action links in a common form (slight button, ...)
that can be used across the page --> Ivan?

> > I hope some of the stuff helps a bit - although I'm unable to do the
> > feature selection stuff (sorry!)
>
> We'll try to get something that pleases everyone, but I must admit
> that it seems logical to me that the devs should have biggest say in
> what features to highlight before others in the New Features page...?

Mmh, why should developers have the biggest say here?

On our official website (here: features page), our aim should be to
strongly focus on the end-users that might be not or only loosely
connected to our community. Plus, the decision makers that represent
organizations that plan to use / switch to LibreOffice (Sophie mentioned
something similar in one of the last mails).

My proposal was to pick up everything that had been included in the
first LibO release, and to check against the strongest wishes of our
user base (happily, we do have this data - so we can avoid too much
guessing). So, our end-users can quickly find what's important to them:
More downloads --> more happy users --> more market share --> more
attractive project --> more users, developers, sponsors, ... :-)

Although developers invest a lot of effort to work on important stuff,
some of this work has almost no end-user related impact on LibreOffice
(now). The job of marketing and UX is to help to connect the both (let's
call it) worlds of "users" and "development" :-)

All, thanks for reading ... enjoy the rest of your day!

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features page ...

Hi, :-)

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 01:59, Christoph Noack <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Here is the poll, but I have to admit that I've - to not miss anyone -
> added all times (even those, I won't be available. So sorry for the many
> options in advance ...
> http://www.doodle.com/py7e7fku8p5v9v92

I responded to the poll. IMHO, it would be better if you contact
Florian, because you are more likely to get a quick reply from him. If
you then give me the codes he sends you, I can host the call if you
prefer...

> It would be great to put up an agenda before our call - so that others
> can follow our discussion or can add their own thoughts.

OK, I can do that when we've fixed a date and time...

> Thus, it is about: [0]
> http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/oSwkWTbgl3oUw-EYzldotA?feat=directlink

Ah.... that's a shame... it's one of the most visually attractive of
the screenshots, and made the Suite look good...
What's actually the problem with this screenshot?

> Oh, we may add the "language specific issue" here as well - some of the
> international teams will have to re-create the screenshots. This is why
> Michael (was it in his last mail in this thread?) talked about the
> "l10n" issues - if possible, we should use only those parts of the
> screen that are not locale specific (e.g. if graphics in Draw are
> sufficient to show a certain behavior, then avoid any text).

Well, since the NL sites have total freedom in their site design, I
don't see too much need to think of them in the English site design...
There's no guarantee that they will be wanting to offer the same or
similar content, is there?

> Concerning the size - yes, practically there is a need for showing
> different sizes. Let's state that a page "is good" if the width of the
> picture column is fix (so that scrolling down does not "wobble" the page
> content), then we can do:
>      * Crop to the desired part of the screenshot
>      * Resize the screenshot so that it fits to the width
>      * Allow the height to be flexible

OK, well let's talk about this during the call... It's worth
remembering that this information only has a limited shelf life, and
we don't have many people doing actual work in the project, so it
might be good to try and keep the production process as simple,
without too many complicated rules....? ;-)

But let's talk and see how to meet as many constraints as possible...

> Mmh, I'll skip that - we may even ask the local communities to provide
> that (given some requirements how the screenshots should look like). I
> bet that the FR community already did something like that.

Well the NL communities can deal with the NL pages, and the English
site team can deal with the English pages...

> But the kind of realization doesn't fit into our "hierarchically
> presented" menu concept - so I propose a link like "See what you get!" /
> "See what's in the box!" / "That's new" / "Know more about the
> Features". Thus, the idea is great, but we can do better :-)

Technically it fits in fine, and this *is* a content issue, an IA issue, no?

> So back to the basic idea ... I think there will be a need (also on
> other pages) to highlight certain things "on page". So I'd like to
> propose some kind of action links in a common form (slight button, ...)
> that can be used across the page --> Ivan?

In addition, is anybody offering to actually produce buttons? For the
moment, I don't see any concrete offers...

>> We'll try to get something that pleases everyone, but I must admit
>> that it seems logical to me that the devs should have biggest say in
>> what features to highlight before others in the New Features page...?
>
> Mmh, why should developers have the biggest say here?

Because we are talking about content on the page - it's a content
issue, not a graphic design issue, and I feel it's important to have
very open ears towards Michael about this...

> Although developers invest a lot of effort to work on important stuff,
> some of this work has almost no end-user related impact on LibreOffice
> (now). The job of marketing and UX is to help to connect the both (let's
> call it) worlds of "users" and "development" :-)

For me, Marketing is Florian and Italo... If they have issues to raise
then I'll be happy to listen to them. But this Features page is
something very relevant to development, and I want to try and satisfy
Michael's priorities and concerns as much as possible.

We will, of course, work to come up with a page that is attractively
presented and in keeping with the graphic charter, but - apart from
that - I don't really see Design playing a big role in the production
of this page...

But I think we can better talk about things during the confcall.... ;-)

David Nelson

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features page ...

Hi David!

Am Montag, den 17.01.2011, 09:40 +0800 schrieb David Nelson:
> Hi, :-)
>
> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 06:37, Christoph Noack <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> But it's simply a screenshot of a very nice graphic someone
> >> produced... This seems extremely draconian... do you think it's a very
> >> important issue?
> >
> > Yes, I do.

> [...]

> Personally I believe your insistence is irrational and not really
> driven by the reasons you state.

Why do you think that?

In this case: I've asked for removing one screenshot, based on the work
of a person I don't even know - why does this seem irrational? One of
the very first things we've did was to provide branding guidelines, and
blogging about that in detail. To make all aware of the fact, how
important our project's representation is.

If you don't think that I'm relying on guidelines/facts/experience, then
we should clarify that in advance. Otherwise, we've really get lost in
endless discussion - currently I still try to explain my thoughts, but
maybe our Marketing / UX understanding is different. So please tell me,
what information you need - or trust the SC's decision.

What I currently perceive is, that many of the requests to you
(non-Windows screenshots, navigation link issues, ...) end up in long
discussions until being commented (or clarified) by Sophie, Italo, or
Michael. Please do also consider that this binds resources that - you
asked for it - had been requested to focus on official TDF stuff or
development. So my wish is, that you put a little bit trust in our
initial website team as well :-)

> Nonetheless, I will comply with your wish (when I have time) and
> replace it with more artwork from the same person.

Thanks! If you miss some time, then please consider to ask the guys on
the Design / Website list to help you - and please upload the source
data, so that anybody can jump in.

Concerning the new artwork, if you are unsure whether it might fit -
please upload an example or link to the source file. Or, since Ivan is
currently the contact person, please ask him for his estimation.

> David Nelson

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features page ...

Hi Sophie, Christoph, :-)

I think you take some things too far. I fail to see the *need* to
remove this beautiful artwork, which is a tribute to LibreOffice that
we should be proud to showcase.

We're not a corporation, we're an Open Source community project
staffed by unpaid volunteers. You don't need to get so *heavy* about
things.

Plus, you have an approach that can give one the impression that we're
all under your orders, and that when you issue instructions then
people have to carry out what you say with no right to question or
discuss. :-D

Lighten up! Get real! ;-) Otherwise you'll find that there will be *no
more* contributors wanting to work for the project... Is that really
what you want?

The thing about the rejection of Windows screenshots was, IMO,
completely ridiculous. OO.org is *full* of Windows screenshots. *Many*
other project and sites on the Internet use screenshots taken under
Windows.

In any case, Sophie, I took 250 screenshots, all under Linux, and then
uploaded them in 2 sizes, just to humor your wishes. And I will remove
the screenshot you want removed, Christoph - just to humor you.

But you need adopt a different approach to things, especially when
it's someone else's time and work, and not your own.

And I do hope that Sophie is not going to get into the habit of
jumping in and verbally duffing me up everytime I don't immediately
agree with you! :-D I didn't know we had an undeclared fifth team
member there to back you up! :-D

So, guys, please don't take all the fun out of contributing to this project. ;-)

And as for "and please upload the source data, so that anybody can
jump in"... You cheeky rogue, Christoph Noack! a) Most people who
contribute artwork to this project do not provide their *source
files*. I asked Ivan multiple times to send me his source files for
the new theme, and never got any but 2 of them, even though I sent him
my complete set of source files produced for Nikash' template! b) If
you actually logged into the libreoffice.org site and took a look, you
would see that I already uploaded *all* my source files *days* ago! So
you are a bit out of order, my friend! :-D

Sophie, Christoph, please take a step back, take a deep breath, and
try and get things in perspective. ;-)

I know you don't really mean badly, but you do somewhat spoil the
contributor UX sometimes, with some attitudes that are rather out of
place! ;-)

Now, I'm not arguing further with you. Respond if you want, but I
won't answer you further in this thread for a couple of days, while I
get some work done by *clients who pay me*. (And I can tell you they
don't do my head in like you guys do!)

Ciao for now. :-)

David Nelson

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new features page ...

Parting shot: ;-)

Sophie, I can see you'll be *rejecting* my membership request when the
time comes, due to my insubordinate and non-conformist attitudes! :-D

"Not good team material, what?" :-D

David Nelson

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