"LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

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"Christoph Schäfer" "Christoph Schäfer"
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"LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

Hi LibreOffice Design Team,


I've joined this list after some back and forth with Mike Saunders.


First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm a member of the Scribus Team and also a supporter of the German non-profit organisation freieFarbe e.V. (www.freiefarbe.de; English: www.freecolour.org). Apart from contributing to both projects, I'm also promoting Scribus and other LibreGraphics projects in talks, discussions an hands-on demonstrations in Austria, Germany and the German-speaking parts of Switzerland. My latest talks were held during the "swiss publish days 2016" in Berne (CH). One was a general overview about LibreGraphics tools for graphics professionals (which is the major audience of this conference), the other one was about LibreOffice as a file converter, as well as tool to create office graphics that can actually be printed at high resolutions or being further enhanced using a professional vector graphics software like Illustrator or CorelDraw. This is one way to sell LibreOffice to graphics professionals who most likely prefer MacOffice, since these are features that MS Office doesn't provide. Moreover, MacOffice doesn't include MS Publisher or MS Visio, so MacOffice customers still need LibreOffice to convert output from these programmes.


Another selling point for LibreOffice arose out of a new development at freieFarbe / freeColour. fF / fC will release version 2.0 of the "OpenColour Systems Collection" (OCSC). This is a collection of colour palettes, mostly from commercial vendors. The collection isn't based on the original colour values provided by these vendors, but on colorimetric measuring of their physical colour references. The colour values themselves are stored as CIE L*a*b. OCSC v. 1.0 only comprised SBZ palettes, a format that apart from SwatchBooker only the development version of Scribus can read. In v. 2.0, however, we'll also include ASE files for Adobe programmes, as well as plain text files. In addition we'll provide RGB versions in the formats GPL (GIMP, Inkscape, Calligra Office, MyPaint), XML (Scribus 1.4.x) AND ... drumroll: SOC (LibreOffice, OpenOffice), which means that more than 350 colour systems will be available to LibreOffice users under a CC licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/legalcode). In other words, LibreOffice users will be enabled to use real-world colour references (within the confines of the sRGB colour space) like graphics professionals do. This is impossible with MS Office!


And there's even more: fF / fC has produced "LibreColour" fans, i.e., fans based on the CIE L*a*b colour model, which is an international free standard. There are two versions of the fan, one using the original CIE L*a*b model. This one can be ignored by LibreOffice users, because LO doesn't support L*a*b and doesn't have to. The purpose of this fan is to check screen colours in L*a*b against a real word reference by using the "L" value as the guide, which isn't exactly intuitive. More interesting is the CIE HLC fan, which provides 1032 colours using the HLC model. Using this fan it's easy to find a real word colour via the "Hue" value and choose its equivalent in a software like LibreOffice, even if it only supports the sRGB colour space. The physical fans provide colour values in CIE L*a*b, CIE HLC, sRGB, CMYK (FOGRA39, coated paper), and HEX. Currently the usage instructions included in the fans and the "shop" site (http://dtpstudio.de/cielab/shop.php) are only available in German, but I'll translate them into English soon. Please note that the fans' production was expensive. The retail price only covers the costs.


A Swiss colleague of mine, who is an expert in the field of cross-media publishing, thinks using LibreOffice with the default colour palette set to CIE-HLC and the CIE HLC colour fan is the most efficient way to work in a cross-media workflow that includes a sophisticated office suite, even if the main office suite is still MS Office.


Hence my request to consider replacing the current default colour palette with CIE-HLC.soc or at least to add it to the palettes shipped with LibreOffice. Since an English version of the colour fans isn't available yet, I suggest you consider my request to be a mid- to long-term suggestion. There's no need to hurry, and if LibreOffice can be made the perfect office suite in cross-media workflows only in version 6, so be it.


Thanks for your patience; any feedback will be welcome.


Kind regards,
Christoph

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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

Hi Christoph,

great to see more creative people here. Me as an usability expert and
the other regular team members are rather UX driven and do not focus
too much on visual aspects, so having you at the list (at least, maybe
also at our weekly hangout on Thursday) is very appreciated.

About the colors we actually have a todo item at
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards (look for
Palette) that references the ticket
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80196 with my
comments regarding the whole topic in comment 29.
The ordinary user likely wants to have only one palette with ~20 brand
colors (e.g. LibreOffice). Now it's easy to imagine that people do not
work for just LibreOffice but also Gnome (Tango), KDE (Breeze), Web
(HTML) etc. and need additional palettes. But it's hard to imagine how
to deal with the 545 (luckily named) colors from the Scribus palette.
So my proposal was/is to strip down what is not needed by the majority
of users and provide easy means to add own
(https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2016/11/11/additions-to-libreoffice/).

What is your position about the default set of palettes? Should we
limit the number of palettes, have also a manageable size in terms of
<50 colors (this is a very arbitrary number), postulate elaborated
color names?

Cheers,
Heiko

2016-11-16 8:35 GMT+01:00 "Christoph Schäfer" <[hidden email]>:

> Hi LibreOffice Design Team,
>
>
> I've joined this list after some back and forth with Mike Saunders.
>
>
> First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm a member of the Scribus Team and also a supporter of the German non-profit organisation freieFarbe e.V. (www.freiefarbe.de; English: www.freecolour.org). Apart from contributing to both projects, I'm also promoting Scribus and other LibreGraphics projects in talks, discussions an hands-on demonstrations in Austria, Germany and the German-speaking parts of Switzerland. My latest talks were held during the "swiss publish days 2016" in Berne (CH). One was a general overview about LibreGraphics tools for graphics professionals (which is the major audience of this conference), the other one was about LibreOffice as a file converter, as well as tool to create office graphics that can actually be printed at high resolutions or being further enhanced using a professional vector graphics software like Illustrator or CorelDraw. This is one way to sell LibreOffice to graphics professionals who most likely prefer MacOffice, since these are features that MS Office doesn't provide. Moreover, MacOffice doesn't include MS Publisher or MS Visio, so MacOffice customers still need LibreOffice to convert output from these programmes.
>
>
> Another selling point for LibreOffice arose out of a new development at freieFarbe / freeColour. fF / fC will release version 2.0 of the "OpenColour Systems Collection" (OCSC). This is a collection of colour palettes, mostly from commercial vendors. The collection isn't based on the original colour values provided by these vendors, but on colorimetric measuring of their physical colour references. The colour values themselves are stored as CIE L*a*b. OCSC v. 1.0 only comprised SBZ palettes, a format that apart from SwatchBooker only the development version of Scribus can read. In v. 2.0, however, we'll also include ASE files for Adobe programmes, as well as plain text files. In addition we'll provide RGB versions in the formats GPL (GIMP, Inkscape, Calligra Office, MyPaint), XML (Scribus 1.4.x) AND ... drumroll: SOC (LibreOffice, OpenOffice), which means that more than 350 colour systems will be available to LibreOffice users under a CC licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/legalcode). In other words, LibreOffice users will be enabled to use real-world colour references (within the confines of the sRGB colour space) like graphics professionals do. This is impossible with MS Office!
>
>
> And there's even more: fF / fC has produced "LibreColour" fans, i.e., fans based on the CIE L*a*b colour model, which is an international free standard. There are two versions of the fan, one using the original CIE L*a*b model. This one can be ignored by LibreOffice users, because LO doesn't support L*a*b and doesn't have to. The purpose of this fan is to check screen colours in L*a*b against a real word reference by using the "L" value as the guide, which isn't exactly intuitive. More interesting is the CIE HLC fan, which provides 1032 colours using the HLC model. Using this fan it's easy to find a real word colour via the "Hue" value and choose its equivalent in a software like LibreOffice, even if it only supports the sRGB colour space. The physical fans provide colour values in CIE L*a*b, CIE HLC, sRGB, CMYK (FOGRA39, coated paper), and HEX. Currently the usage instructions included in the fans and the "shop" site (http://dtpstudio.de/cielab/shop.php) are only available in German, but I'll translate them into English soon. Please note that the fans' production was expensive. The retail price only covers the costs.
>
>
> A Swiss colleague of mine, who is an expert in the field of cross-media publishing, thinks using LibreOffice with the default colour palette set to CIE-HLC and the CIE HLC colour fan is the most efficient way to work in a cross-media workflow that includes a sophisticated office suite, even if the main office suite is still MS Office.
>
>
> Hence my request to consider replacing the current default colour palette with CIE-HLC.soc or at least to add it to the palettes shipped with LibreOffice. Since an English version of the colour fans isn't available yet, I suggest you consider my request to be a mid- to long-term suggestion. There's no need to hurry, and if LibreOffice can be made the perfect office suite in cross-media workflows only in version 6, so be it.
>
>
> Thanks for your patience; any feedback will be welcome.
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Christoph
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

Hi Mike,

I forward your message to the ML. As you may know we will have better user
palette management in 5.3. Meaning you can add colors in the area style
dialog to the newly introduced 'custom palette'. The former palette
management at Tools > Options > Color has been removed. Also document
colors will work now.
Saying that it doesn't contradicts any of your comments.

Cheers,
Heiko

2016-11-16 11:13 GMT+01:00 Mike Hall <[hidden email]>:

> On 16/11/2016 08:24, Heiko Tietze wrote:
>
> What is your position about the default set of palettes? Should we
> limit the number of palettes, have also a manageable size in terms of
> <50 colors (this is a very arbitrary number), postulate elaborated
> color names?
>
> As a reasonably ordinary user of colour, I've been frustrated by the
> current limitations and look forward to the improvements in 5.3. From my
> perspective, the number of colours in the current palette is not a problem,
> though the naming is, being opaque and inconsistent. I want a single
> palette that covers all my tasks, from simple wp to design and web work. A
> basic palette of approx 40 colours won't be sufficient for that. So,
> although I can see a case for a carefully designed default basic palette,
> it's important for LO to ship a full palette and make it easy to select a
> different palette from all the apps.
> To take things a step further, are you focussing on delivering better
> palettes or on delivering a better colour service? The latter, implying eg
> carefully constructed documentation, is what would help to set LO apart.
> --
>
>
>

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"Christoph Schäfer" "Christoph Schäfer"
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Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-2
Hello Heiko,


Thank you very much for your quick reply.

First of all we need to make clear we are using the same terminology. Where I come from (graphics and publishing), a "palette" means a collection of colours stored in a file.

As to your statement "The ordinary user likely wants to have only one palette with ~20 brand colors", I'd be interested how you determined this. Did you have a survey? Please note that I'm not denying your assumption. I'm rather interested in the empirical base of it. I'm also curious about your definition of "brand colour". What does that mean? It can't be something like HKS or Pantone, since these are named colours with a unique colour value. In ODF, however, colours are only stored with a hex value, not as named colours, so the "branding" disappears once you save the file.

It's fine with me if most LibreOffice users only want to use a limited set of colours. We actually removed most colour palettes (i.e., colour collections) from the development version of Scribus and switched to offering the rest (c. 400 palettes) for download via our new "Resource Manager". We kept CIE-HLC and CIE-LAB, though, simply because we support freieFarbe / freeColour and because we encourage our users to save money by using the inexpensive, yet extremely useful "LibreColour" fans.

My position on the number of colour palettes? Offer a reasonable small selection (of palettes, not colours per palette), including CIE-HLC, with the default installation of LO, and offer the rest as download option, either from within LO or via a plug-in. As for the number of colours per palette, I don't think it's a safe bet to make any assumptions. User requirements are likely to be varied. IMHO, LibreOffice would place itself as the Office suite of choice in cross-media workflows by including the CIE-HLC palette. If you don't know what "cross-media workflow" means, I suggest you watch an introductory video by my Swiss colleague Peter Jäger under https://com2publish.ch/lektionen/crossmedia-beratung-%E2%80%93-von-der-sachbearbeitung-bis-zum-layouter. I'm assuming you're a native speaker of German, based on your name, so I'm quite sure you'll be able to understand it. LibreOffice's position is unique here, because it actually allows changing the default palette and hence adjust to different workflow requirements, something no other Office suite I know of, and certainly not MS Office, can.

As to the "weekly hangout", I must admit I'm totally new to this list. What does it mean and where in the virtual world does it happen?


Kind regards,
Christoph

> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. November 2016 um 09:24 Uhr
> Von: "Heiko Tietze" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Christoph Schäfer" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "LibreOffice Design" <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice
>
> Hi Christoph,
>
> great to see more creative people here. Me as an usability expert and
> the other regular team members are rather UX driven and do not focus
> too much on visual aspects, so having you at the list (at least, maybe
> also at our weekly hangout on Thursday) is very appreciated.
>
> About the colors we actually have a todo item at
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards (look for
> Palette) that references the ticket
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80196 with my
> comments regarding the whole topic in comment 29.
> The ordinary user likely wants to have only one palette with ~20 brand
> colors (e.g. LibreOffice). Now it's easy to imagine that people do not
> work for just LibreOffice but also Gnome (Tango), KDE (Breeze), Web
> (HTML) etc. and need additional palettes. But it's hard to imagine how
> to deal with the 545 (luckily named) colors from the Scribus palette.
> So my proposal was/is to strip down what is not needed by the majority
> of users and provide easy means to add own
> (https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2016/11/11/additions-to-libreoffice/).
>
> What is your position about the default set of palettes? Should we
> limit the number of palettes, have also a manageable size in terms of
> <50 colors (this is a very arbitrary number), postulate elaborated
> color names?
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
> 2016-11-16 8:35 GMT+01:00 "Christoph Schäfer" <[hidden email]>:
> > Hi LibreOffice Design Team,
> >
> >
> > I've joined this list after some back and forth with Mike Saunders.
> >
> >
> > First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm a member of the Scribus Team and also a supporter of the German non-profit organisation freieFarbe e.V. (www.freiefarbe.de; English: www.freecolour.org). Apart from contributing to both projects, I'm also promoting Scribus and other LibreGraphics projects in talks, discussions an hands-on demonstrations in Austria, Germany and the German-speaking parts of Switzerland. My latest talks were held during the "swiss publish days 2016" in Berne (CH). One was a general overview about LibreGraphics tools for graphics professionals (which is the major audience of this conference), the other one was about LibreOffice as a file converter, as well as tool to create office graphics that can actually be printed at high resolutions or being further enhanced using a professional vector graphics software like Illustrator or CorelDraw. This is one way to sell LibreOffice to graphics professionals who most likely prefer MacOffice, since these are features that MS Office doesn't provide. Moreover, MacOffice doesn't include MS Publisher or MS Visio, so MacOffice customers still need LibreOffice to convert output from these programmes.
> >
> >
> > Another selling point for LibreOffice arose out of a new development at freieFarbe / freeColour. fF / fC will release version 2.0 of the "OpenColour Systems Collection" (OCSC). This is a collection of colour palettes, mostly from commercial vendors. The collection isn't based on the original colour values provided by these vendors, but on colorimetric measuring of their physical colour references. The colour values themselves are stored as CIE L*a*b. OCSC v. 1.0 only comprised SBZ palettes, a format that apart from SwatchBooker only the development version of Scribus can read. In v. 2.0, however, we'll also include ASE files for Adobe programmes, as well as plain text files. In addition we'll provide RGB versions in the formats GPL (GIMP, Inkscape, Calligra Office, MyPaint), XML (Scribus 1.4.x) AND ... drumroll: SOC (LibreOffice, OpenOffice), which means that more than 350 colour systems will be available to LibreOffice users under a CC licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/legalcode). In other words, LibreOffice users will be enabled to use real-world colour references (within the confines of the sRGB colour space) like graphics professionals do. This is impossible with MS Office!
> >
> >
> > And there's even more: fF / fC has produced "LibreColour" fans, i.e., fans based on the CIE L*a*b colour model, which is an international free standard. There are two versions of the fan, one using the original CIE L*a*b model. This one can be ignored by LibreOffice users, because LO doesn't support L*a*b and doesn't have to. The purpose of this fan is to check screen colours in L*a*b against a real word reference by using the "L" value as the guide, which isn't exactly intuitive. More interesting is the CIE HLC fan, which provides 1032 colours using the HLC model. Using this fan it's easy to find a real word colour via the "Hue" value and choose its equivalent in a software like LibreOffice, even if it only supports the sRGB colour space. The physical fans provide colour values in CIE L*a*b, CIE HLC, sRGB, CMYK (FOGRA39, coated paper), and HEX. Currently the usage instructions included in the fans and the "shop" site (http://dtpstudio.de/cielab/shop.php) are only available in German, but I'll translate them into English soon. Please note that the fans' production was expensive. The retail price only covers the costs.
> >
> >
> > A Swiss colleague of mine, who is an expert in the field of cross-media publishing, thinks using LibreOffice with the default colour palette set to CIE-HLC and the CIE HLC colour fan is the most efficient way to work in a cross-media workflow that includes a sophisticated office suite, even if the main office suite is still MS Office.
> >
> >
> > Hence my request to consider replacing the current default colour palette with CIE-HLC.soc or at least to add it to the palettes shipped with LibreOffice. Since an English version of the colour fans isn't available yet, I suggest you consider my request to be a mid- to long-term suggestion. There's no need to hurry, and if LibreOffice can be made the perfect office suite in cross-media workflows only in version 6, so be it.
> >
> >
> > Thanks for your patience; any feedback will be welcome.
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Christoph
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> > Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>

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"Christoph Schäfer" "Christoph Schäfer"
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Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-2
Errm ...

>The former palette management at Tools > Options > Color has been removed.

I haven't seen this yet, but it looks like you just removed one of the most significant advantages of LibreOffice.

Just sayin'...

Christoph


> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. November 2016 um 11:53 Uhr
> Von: "Heiko Tietze" <[hidden email]>
> An: "LibreOffice Design" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Mike Hall" <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I forward your message to the ML. As you may know we will have better user
> palette management in 5.3. Meaning you can add colors in the area style
> dialog to the newly introduced 'custom palette'. The former palette
> management at Tools > Options > Color has been removed. Also document
> colors will work now.
> Saying that it doesn't contradicts any of your comments.
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
> 2016-11-16 11:13 GMT+01:00 Mike Hall <[hidden email]>:
>
> > On 16/11/2016 08:24, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> >
> > What is your position about the default set of palettes? Should we
> > limit the number of palettes, have also a manageable size in terms of
> > <50 colors (this is a very arbitrary number), postulate elaborated
> > color names?
> >
> > As a reasonably ordinary user of colour, I've been frustrated by the
> > current limitations and look forward to the improvements in 5.3. From my
> > perspective, the number of colours in the current palette is not a problem,
> > though the naming is, being opaque and inconsistent. I want a single
> > palette that covers all my tasks, from simple wp to design and web work. A
> > basic palette of approx 40 colours won't be sufficient for that. So,
> > although I can see a case for a carefully designed default basic palette,
> > it's important for LO to ship a full palette and make it easy to select a
> > different palette from all the apps.
> > To take things a step further, are you focussing on delivering better
> > palettes or on delivering a better colour service? The latter, implying eg
> > carefully constructed documentation, is what would help to set LO apart.
> > --
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>

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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Re: Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by "Christoph Schäfer"
Hi Christoph,

it is a gut feeling to say 20 colors per palette are enough but also based on the fact that company branding usually goes with far less colors. Your LibreColor set is an 'expert palette' and would be the basis for such a restricted 'user palette'. However, Mike supports your position and wants rather more freedom than limitation. So I might be wrong.

The recent changes to palette modifications are based on the idea of consistency and simplicity for the ordinary user. In the past (actually still in the current version) you can modify predefined palettes and change factory settings. Of course that would be possible in future too but only when you 'hack' the soc file. We introduced a new custom palette for user-defined colors and made it more convenient to use. So only one palette is available for modification in the GUI.

More about the changes (not only palette handling was challenged)
https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2015/12/22/area-fill-options-made-consistent/
http://www.slideshare.net/HeikoTietze/libocon16areafill

The design team has a welcome page at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design where I updated the new meeting time right now: It is every Thursday at 10am UTC (11:00 CET). We meet on Google Hangouts but may move to Jitsi. You can contact the team at IRC, #libreoffice-design.

Kind regards,
Heiko

On 11/17/2016 08:11 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

> Hello Heiko,
>
>
> Thank you very much for your quick reply.
>
> First of all we need to make clear we are using the same terminology. Where I come from (graphics and publishing), a "palette" means a collection of colours stored in a file.
>
> As to your statement "The ordinary user likely wants to have only one palette with ~20 brand colors", I'd be interested how you determined this. Did you have a survey? Please note that I'm not denying your assumption. I'm rather interested in the empirical base of it. I'm also curious about your definition of "brand colour". What does that mean? It can't be something like HKS or Pantone, since these are named colours with a unique colour value. In ODF, however, colours are only stored with a hex value, not as named colours, so the "branding" disappears once you save the file.
>
> It's fine with me if most LibreOffice users only want to use a limited set of colours. We actually removed most colour palettes (i.e., colour collections) from the development version of Scribus and switched to offering the rest (c. 400 palettes) for download via our new "Resource Manager". We kept CIE-HLC and CIE-LAB, though, simply because we support freieFarbe / freeColour and because we encourage our users to save money by using the inexpensive, yet extremely useful "LibreColour" fans.
>
> My position on the number of colour palettes? Offer a reasonable small selection (of palettes, not colours per palette), including CIE-HLC, with the default installation of LO, and offer the rest as download option, either from within LO or via a plug-in. As for the number of colours per palette, I don't think it's a safe bet to make any assumptions. User requirements are likely to be varied. IMHO, LibreOffice would place itself as the Office suite of choice in cross-media workflows by including the CIE-HLC palette. If you don't know what "cross-media workflow" means, I suggest you watch an introductory video by my Swiss colleague Peter Jäger under https://com2publish.ch/lektionen/crossmedia-beratung-%E2%80%93-von-der-sachbearbeitung-bis-zum-layouter. I'm assuming you're a native speaker of German, based on your name, so I'm quite sure you'll be able to understand it. LibreOffice's position is unique here, because it actually allows changing the default palette and hence adjust to different workflow requirements, something no other Office suite I know of, and certainly not MS Office, can.
>
> As to the "weekly hangout", I must admit I'm totally new to this list. What does it mean and where in the virtual world does it happen?
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Christoph
>
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. November 2016 um 09:24 Uhr
>> Von: "Heiko Tietze" <[hidden email]>
>> An: "Christoph Schäfer" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "LibreOffice Design" <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice
>>
>> Hi Christoph,
>>
>> great to see more creative people here. Me as an usability expert and
>> the other regular team members are rather UX driven and do not focus
>> too much on visual aspects, so having you at the list (at least, maybe
>> also at our weekly hangout on Thursday) is very appreciated.
>>
>> About the colors we actually have a todo item at
>> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards (look for
>> Palette) that references the ticket
>> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80196 with my
>> comments regarding the whole topic in comment 29.
>> The ordinary user likely wants to have only one palette with ~20 brand
>> colors (e.g. LibreOffice). Now it's easy to imagine that people do not
>> work for just LibreOffice but also Gnome (Tango), KDE (Breeze), Web
>> (HTML) etc. and need additional palettes. But it's hard to imagine how
>> to deal with the 545 (luckily named) colors from the Scribus palette.
>> So my proposal was/is to strip down what is not needed by the majority
>> of users and provide easy means to add own
>> (https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2016/11/11/additions-to-libreoffice/).
>>
>> What is your position about the default set of palettes? Should we
>> limit the number of palettes, have also a manageable size in terms of
>> <50 colors (this is a very arbitrary number), postulate elaborated
>> color names?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Heiko
>>
>> 2016-11-16 8:35 GMT+01:00 "Christoph Schäfer" <[hidden email]>:
>>> Hi LibreOffice Design Team,
>>>
>>>
>>> I've joined this list after some back and forth with Mike Saunders.
>>>
>>>
>>> First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm a member of the Scribus Team and also a supporter of the German non-profit organisation freieFarbe e.V. (www.freiefarbe.de; English: www.freecolour.org). Apart from contributing to both projects, I'm also promoting Scribus and other LibreGraphics projects in talks, discussions an hands-on demonstrations in Austria, Germany and the German-speaking parts of Switzerland. My latest talks were held during the "swiss publish days 2016" in Berne (CH). One was a general overview about LibreGraphics tools for graphics professionals (which is the major audience of this conference), the other one was about LibreOffice as a file converter, as well as tool to create office graphics that can actually be printed at high resolutions or being further enhanced using a professional vector graphics software like Illustrator or CorelDraw. This is one way to sell LibreOffice to graphics professionals who most likely prefer MacOffice, since these are features that MS Office doesn't provide. Moreover, MacOffice doesn't include MS Publisher or MS Visio, so MacOffice customers still need LibreOffice to convert output from these programmes.
>>>
>>>
>>> Another selling point for LibreOffice arose out of a new development at freieFarbe / freeColour. fF / fC will release version 2.0 of the "OpenColour Systems Collection" (OCSC). This is a collection of colour palettes, mostly from commercial vendors. The collection isn't based on the original colour values provided by these vendors, but on colorimetric measuring of their physical colour references. The colour values themselves are stored as CIE L*a*b. OCSC v. 1.0 only comprised SBZ palettes, a format that apart from SwatchBooker only the development version of Scribus can read. In v. 2.0, however, we'll also include ASE files for Adobe programmes, as well as plain text files. In addition we'll provide RGB versions in the formats GPL (GIMP, Inkscape, Calligra Office, MyPaint), XML (Scribus 1.4.x) AND ... drumroll: SOC (LibreOffice, OpenOffice), which means that more than 350 colour systems will be available to LibreOffice users under a CC licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/legalcode). In other words, LibreOffice users will be enabled to use real-world colour references (within the confines of the sRGB colour space) like graphics professionals do. This is impossible with MS Office!
>>>
>>>
>>> And there's even more: fF / fC has produced "LibreColour" fans, i.e., fans based on the CIE L*a*b colour model, which is an international free standard. There are two versions of the fan, one using the original CIE L*a*b model. This one can be ignored by LibreOffice users, because LO doesn't support L*a*b and doesn't have to. The purpose of this fan is to check screen colours in L*a*b against a real word reference by using the "L" value as the guide, which isn't exactly intuitive. More interesting is the CIE HLC fan, which provides 1032 colours using the HLC model. Using this fan it's easy to find a real word colour via the "Hue" value and choose its equivalent in a software like LibreOffice, even if it only supports the sRGB colour space. The physical fans provide colour values in CIE L*a*b, CIE HLC, sRGB, CMYK (FOGRA39, coated paper), and HEX. Currently the usage instructions included in the fans and the "shop" site (http://dtpstudio.de/cielab/shop.php) are only available in German, but I'll translate them into English soon. Please note that the fans' production was expensive. The retail price only covers the costs.
>>>
>>>
>>> A Swiss colleague of mine, who is an expert in the field of cross-media publishing, thinks using LibreOffice with the default colour palette set to CIE-HLC and the CIE HLC colour fan is the most efficient way to work in a cross-media workflow that includes a sophisticated office suite, even if the main office suite is still MS Office.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hence my request to consider replacing the current default colour palette with CIE-HLC.soc or at least to add it to the palettes shipped with LibreOffice. Since an English version of the colour fans isn't available yet, I suggest you consider my request to be a mid- to long-term suggestion. There's no need to hurry, and if LibreOffice can be made the perfect office suite in cross-media workflows only in version 6, so be it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for your patience; any feedback will be welcome.
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Christoph
>>>
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>>
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--
Dr. Heiko Tietze
UX Designer
Tel. +49 (0)179/1268509


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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Re: Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by "Christoph Schäfer"
We talked about LibreColor in the design hangout. In short here are the minutes:

   + can we do this per extension? wouldn't do so (Tomaz) but possible (Samuel)
   + names are not important (Jay), disagree (Heiko)
   + reduce the number of items per palette to have a good organization (Jay)
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87538 - new default
     + ask Mirek about the reasoning to create the default palette
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87541 - extra palettes
     + Survey? not really needed
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80196 - tonal palette
     comment 29: (Heiko)
      * remove cmyk, gallery, html, palette, web
      * add this "tonal" palette here, when the names are improved (design only easyhack),
        but also add Breeze colors (https://community.kde.org/KDE_Visual_Design_Group/HIG/Color)
        (html makes sense, comment 31)
     -> replace Scribus by LibreColor (names would be nice) or make it available per extension
   + more opinions needed (Anxhelo)



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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

@Heiko, *

Not likely to make a hangout at the new time.

A bit concerned with the note in the minutes:
"* remove cmyk, gallery, html, palette, web"

See Regina's note regards "html" palette https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80196#c31 that these named colors are actually standardized named colors from X11 - CSS - SVG, and so are _keywords_.
We probably need to retain the html palette bundled.

The others can/should probably go...

Would agree that including Owen G.'s implementation of Wade P.'s generated reference "color palette organized according to gray scale (a.k.a. gray tone, or luminance contrast)".  Here is link to the resulting .soc,  a bit underwhelming, but remember it is a technical test palette:
http://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=105128

Bundling the KDE Breeze DE colors are fine, but isn't there similar HIG color spec for GNOME or Apple.

Finally assuming no licensing issues add the FreieFarbe/FreeColour CIE-HLC palette when provided as .soc,  lack of naming should not be a problem--just strip out the names and use the HSL/RGB

Side bar--does the Color Picker UI need adjustment to better display the HSL -- we provide an HSV (labeled as HSB)  not HSL--do we need both? Or should the widget be reworked to accommodate HSL?


jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-2
On 16/11/2016 08:24, Heiko Tietze wrote:

>But it's hard to imagine how to deal with the 545 (luckily named)
colors from the Scribus palette.

Go back to 2004, and there were complaints from some people that the
palettes for OOo didn't contain enough colours. Those complaints were
what prompted me to create the colour palette at
https://app.box.com/s/9552x6yjgcdlhbaf356vgmbd21k4oe9p.

The second most common complaint I've received about that palette, is
that the colours are not named. The most common complaint is the obvious
one.

#####

The size of the palette is not an issue, _if_ the colours are
consistently ordered by hue ,chroma, and lightness. When colours are
randomly ordered, such as by RGB value, or alphabetically, the palette
becomes, at best, awkward to use.

> Should we limit the number of palettes,

Ship with one palette, but have additional palettes available for
installation as an extension. ZD_Color_Palettes.oxt being an existing,
albeit somewhat dysfunctional example.

>have also a manageable size in terms of <50 colors (this is a very
arbitrary number), postulate elaborated color names?

Personally, I think that the minimum size should be 128 colours.

One might be able to get away with a 64 colour palette, if alternative
palettes are _easy_ for non-technical people to install.
Both ooespalette.1.1.oxt and ZD_Color_Palettes.oxt throw an error, when
attempting to install their *.soc files using the extension. For
non-techies, this is a fail.

#####

One other item to be considered, is that switching palettes from within
LibO usually requires the program to be restarted.  (My normal practice
is to close LibO, copy the palette I want to standard.soc, then start LibO.)

jonathon


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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

toki wrote
...

Personally, I think that the minimum size should be 128 colours.

One might be able to get away with a 64 colour palette, if alternative
palettes are _easy_ for non-technical people to install.
Both ooespalette.1.1.oxt and ZD_Color_Palettes.oxt throw an error, when
attempting to install their *.soc files using the extension. For
non-techies, this is a fail.
The color swatch widget has a view windows of 12 x 7 swatches.

The current LO standard palette is 167 colors and 14 rows.  The current scribus.soc is 546 named colors--sorted by color name so just 45.5 rows to scroll through.

A .soc with the 1032 colors of  LibreColour CIE HLC would take 86 rows to scroll, so not too troubling.

A palette of 16.7 million colors  is a bit too many to scroll and pick from, mind numbing to advance through.

One other item to be considered, is that switching palettes from within
LibO usually requires the program to be restarted.  (My normal practice
is to close LibO, copy the palette I want to standard.soc, then start LibO.)
No restart is necessary and renaming standard.soc is the wrong approach as that _would_ make for a bad UX.   Rather, all the color dialogs should now have option to select the palette to use. Having any external palette available is simply an issue of copying it to the $ORIGIN/share/palette directory. It will then show in the dropdown list with all other "installed" palettes. You do not need to work in the standard palette--the document canvas will be rendered with the selected color either from swatch or "custom" from the color picker.
"Christoph Schäfer" "Christoph Schäfer"
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Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by jonathon-6
Hi Toki,


Thanks for making sense :)

In the CIE-HLC palette colours are ordered by Hue - Lightness - Chroma in increments of 10, e.g., HLC 000-00-10, HLC 000-00-20 etc. After some experimentation we found that this model is the most user-friendly, compared to the more common LCH or HCL (not to mention LAB), because it's much easier to find a colour in the printed reference. Actually, it's much more efficient than any other colour reference I've worked with, including Pantone and HKS. So yes, it's *very* important for colours to be named, especially if you're working with a physical colour reference.

It would be even better if the ODF spec could be extended to be able to store named colours as an option.


As to the number of palettes, I'd suggest a basic palette, e.g. 128 or 256 colours plus CIE-HLC. As for the rest, the suggestion of using extensions (plural) makes sense:

- one with all the palettes currently shipped with LO;

- another one with the Open Colour Systems Collection (more than 360; the number of colours per file varies between a handful for foils and more than 5000 for car finishes; CC licence);

- I can also create SOC files from the palettes currently shipped with Scribus, including various government standards (US, DE, NL, CA, UK; mostly Public Domain or similar);

- Finally, I could also create SOC versions of all colour palettes provided by the New Zealand colour vendor Resene. They are under a BSD-style licence, so the distribution would be OK.


Unfortunately, I've no experience in building OXT files, so I'd need some assistance or someone who'd do the building for me.


On a final note, I wonder why there is a file called "scribus.soc". These are not the colours of any of Scribus's "native" palettes but the old X11 colours, so the correct name would be "X11.soc".


Kind regards,
Christoph

> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. November 2016 um 20:10 Uhr
> Von: toki <[hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice
>
> On 16/11/2016 08:24, Heiko Tietze wrote:
>
> >But it's hard to imagine how to deal with the 545 (luckily named)
> colors from the Scribus palette.
>
> Go back to 2004, and there were complaints from some people that the
> palettes for OOo didn't contain enough colours. Those complaints were
> what prompted me to create the colour palette at
> https://app.box.com/s/9552x6yjgcdlhbaf356vgmbd21k4oe9p.
>
> The second most common complaint I've received about that palette, is
> that the colours are not named. The most common complaint is the obvious
> one.
>
> #####
>
> The size of the palette is not an issue, _if_ the colours are
> consistently ordered by hue ,chroma, and lightness. When colours are
> randomly ordered, such as by RGB value, or alphabetically, the palette
> becomes, at best, awkward to use.
>
> > Should we limit the number of palettes,
>
> Ship with one palette, but have additional palettes available for
> installation as an extension. ZD_Color_Palettes.oxt being an existing,
> albeit somewhat dysfunctional example.
>
> >have also a manageable size in terms of <50 colors (this is a very
> arbitrary number), postulate elaborated color names?
>
> Personally, I think that the minimum size should be 128 colours.
>
> One might be able to get away with a 64 colour palette, if alternative
> palettes are _easy_ for non-technical people to install.
> Both ooespalette.1.1.oxt and ZD_Color_Palettes.oxt throw an error, when
> attempting to install their *.soc files using the extension. For
> non-techies, this is a fail.
>
> #####
>
> One other item to be considered, is that switching palettes from within
> LibO usually requires the program to be restarted.  (My normal practice
> is to close LibO, copy the palette I want to standard.soc, then start LibO.)
>
> jonathon
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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krackedpress krackedpress
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Re: Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

On 11/18/2016 01:43 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

> Hi Toki,
>
>
> Thanks for making sense :)
>
> In the CIE-HLC palette colours are ordered by Hue - Lightness - Chroma in increments of 10, e.g., HLC 000-00-10, HLC 000-00-20 etc. After some experimentation we found that this model is the most user-friendly, compared to the more common LCH or HCL (not to mention LAB), because it's much easier to find a colour in the printed reference. Actually, it's much more efficient than any other colour reference I've worked with, including Pantone and HKS. So yes, it's *very* important for colours to be named, especially if you're working with a physical colour reference.
>
> It would be even better if the ODF spec could be extended to be able to store named colours as an option.
>
>
> As to the number of palettes, I'd suggest a basic palette, e.g. 128 or 256 colours plus CIE-HLC. As for the rest, the suggestion of using extensions (plural) makes sense:
>
> - one with all the palettes currently shipped with LO;
>
> - another one with the Open Colour Systems Collection (more than 360; the number of colours per file varies between a handful for foils and more than 5000 for car finishes; CC licence);
>
> - I can also create SOC files from the palettes currently shipped with Scribus, including various government standards (US, DE, NL, CA, UK; mostly Public Domain or similar);
>
> - Finally, I could also create SOC versions of all colour palettes provided by the New Zealand colour vendor Resene. They are under a BSD-style licence, so the distribution would be OK.
>
>
> Unfortunately, I've no experience in building OXT files, so I'd need some assistance or someone who'd do the building for me.
>
>
> On a final note, I wonder why there is a file called "scribus.soc". These are not the colours of any of Scribus's "native" palettes but the old X11 colours, so the correct name would be "X11.soc".
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Christoph
>
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. November 2016 um 20:10 Uhr
>> Von: toki <[hidden email]>
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice
>>
>> On 16/11/2016 08:24, Heiko Tietze wrote:
>>
>>> But it's hard to imagine how to deal with the 545 (luckily named)
>> colors from the Scribus palette.
>>
>> Go back to 2004, and there were complaints from some people that the
>> palettes for OOo didn't contain enough colours. Those complaints were
>> what prompted me to create the colour palette at
>> https://app.box.com/s/9552x6yjgcdlhbaf356vgmbd21k4oe9p.
I just downloaded the "ultimate_colour_palette.soc" from the
"app.box.com" link.  Trying to view this 922.7 meg file crased "Kate"
and another one.  The "default text viewer" took a few minutes to open.  
I did not finished the process, since it already went past more colors
than I would want to use.

My "default" soc file was created for over 1,000 colors.  I am thinking
to strip that creation to several others.  I have to go a long way to
get to the Gold and Copper styles of colors.  The same for other groups
of colors that might be easier than one large color file.

#######

The only issue[s] now is the fact that my HP Officejet 7000 [paper up to
13x19 inches] has a different color printing than the Canon inkjets,
with even differences within the Canon printers.  The MG5400 series -
packed away as my spare printer - uses a different ink cartridges than
my MG5320 and MG6220 ink set.  Both of the last two use the same ink so
the color printed out on them look the same.

So, this means that if I print out a letter sized poster on the
Officejet and the same file to the MG5400 series they look different
with the Officejet a little darker.  The MG5320 and. MG6220 printers
also look different from both the HP and the Canon 5400 series.

Note: since I packed it away, I do not remember if is a 5420 or 5440,
etc. - I am reading the info from my "printer" option for Ubuntu/Mate
laptop.  Also I have almost stopped using the MG6220 since it is making
a lot of "noise".  The 5320 was a "replacement" for the noisy printer -
which was my default printer.

[  I hope I am making any sense, since I have been up for almost 24
hours now]



>> The second most common complaint I've received about that palette, is
>> that the colours are not named. The most common complaint is the obvious
>> one.
>>
>> #####
>>
>> The size of the palette is not an issue, _if_ the colours are
>> consistently ordered by hue ,chroma, and lightness. When colours are
>> randomly ordered, such as by RGB value, or alphabetically, the palette
>> becomes, at best, awkward to use.
>>
>>> Should we limit the number of palettes,
>> Ship with one palette, but have additional palettes available for
>> installation as an extension. ZD_Color_Palettes.oxt being an existing,
>> albeit somewhat dysfunctional example.
>>
>>> have also a manageable size in terms of <50 colors (this is a very
>> arbitrary number), postulate elaborated color names?
>>
>> Personally, I think that the minimum size should be 128 colours.
>>
>> One might be able to get away with a 64 colour palette, if alternative
>> palettes are _easy_ for non-technical people to install.
>> Both ooespalette.1.1.oxt and ZD_Color_Palettes.oxt throw an error, when
>> attempting to install their *.soc files using the extension. For
>> non-techies, this is a fail.
>>
>> #####
>>
>> One other item to be considered, is that switching palettes from within
>> LibO usually requires the program to be restarted.  (My normal practice
>> is to close LibO, copy the palette I want to standard.soc, then start LibO.)
>>
>> jonathon
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email]
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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-2
After the discussion here I
* removed the palettes Web, Cmyk, Gallery, Palette, and Scribus [1],
* reworked Html with a new order [2],
* made a few changes to the Tango names [3], and
* added Breeze [4].

Furthermore I created ticket tdf104052 [5] to add the LibreColor palette (would say this name is better than CIE-HLC). Please add the soc-file, Christian. Or send it to me in case you want to get supported.

Open task is to beautify the standard.soc. Not sure that removing Sky Tango 1 for instance doesn't break anything.

[1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104047
[2] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104048
[3] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104051
[4] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104050
[5] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104052


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"Christoph Schäfer" "Christoph Schäfer"
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Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

Hello Heiko,

You're acting quickly, but maybe too quickly ;)

First of all, it doesn't make sense to remove most of the previously available palettes until users can download them separately or until there is an OXT file available that enables them to get their preferred colour palettes back.

Second, a minor nitpick: fF would be pleased to have the HLC palette distributed under the "Libre" flag. However, the label would be "LibreColo*u*r", because fF / fC is based in Europe, and, Brexit notwithstanding, we use International English.

Kind regards,
Christoph

> Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. November 2016 um 08:39 Uhr
> Von: "Heiko Tietze" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Christoph Schäfer" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "jan iversen" <[hidden email]>, "LibreOffice Design" <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice
>
> After the discussion here I
> * removed the palettes Web, Cmyk, Gallery, Palette, and Scribus [1],
> * reworked Html with a new order [2],
> * made a few changes to the Tango names [3], and
> * added Breeze [4].
>
> Furthermore I created ticket tdf104052 [5] to add the LibreColor palette (would say this name is better than CIE-HLC). Please add the soc-file, Christian. Or send it to me in case you want to get supported.
>
> Open task is to beautify the standard.soc. Not sure that removing Sky Tango 1 for instance doesn't break anything.
>
> [1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104047
> [2] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104048
> [3] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104051
> [4] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104050
> [5] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104052
>
>
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Heiko Tietze-2 Heiko Tietze-2
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Re: Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice


On 11/20/2016 09:21 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:
> You're acting quickly, but maybe too quickly ;)

No worries, nothing has been added to master, and actually I CC'ed Jan Iversen because he will accept or reject the changes and should be aware of the discussion. Nevertheless I believe we should remove the obsolete palettes. It makes no sense to have Html and Web and the colors again in Scribus aka X11. Next to the streamlined and rather concise LibreOffice, Standard, Breeze, Tango, and Tonal we will have Html and LibreColour. Sounds good to me, no need to fiddle around with extensions (most agreed with the addition).

Btw, I created the last ticket https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104053 for LibreOffice branding colors with better names. The palette has not been committed yet, waiting for the marketing people to reply.


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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by V Stuart Foote
On 17/11/2016 22:33, V Stuart Foote wrote:

> A palette of 16.7 million colors  is a bit too many to scroll and pick from, mind numbing to advance through.

It makes a very good test of one's ability to discriminate between
shades that are very closely related.

> No restart is necessary and renaming standard.soc is the wrong approach as that _would_ make for a bad UX.   Rather, all the color dialogs should now have option to select the palette to use.

I haven't tested LibO 5.3.x, but in 5.2.X if you want to use a different
colour palette in Write, you have to rename the desired palette to
standard.soc.

jonathon

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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by "Christoph Schäfer"
On 20/11/16 08:21, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:

>it doesn't make sense to remove most of the previously available palettes until users can download them separately

Which version of LibO will be the first one to ship _without_ the colour
palettes?

If it is LibO 5.3..0.x (the one that is currently either pre-alpha,
alpha, or pre-beta), then that breakage is OK.

If it is for a proposed 5.2.4, then removing it now is iffy.

My theory is that in the next month or so, somebody will come up with an
extension that correctly installs the *.so? files in ~/usr/config/.

>the label would be "LibreColo*u*r", because fF / fC is based in Europe,

The Spanish word for "Colour" is "Color".

However, that doesn't negate using:
* LibreKleur;
* LibreCouleur;
* LibreFarbe;
* LibreCor;
* LibreDath;
instead.

Dutch, French, German, Portuguese, and Irish, respectively.

jonathon

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"Christoph Schäfer" "Christoph Schäfer"
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Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by jonathon-6


> Gesendet: Montag, 21. November 2016 um 00:28 Uhr
> Von: toki <[hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice
>
> On 17/11/2016 22:33, V Stuart Foote wrote:
>
> > A palette of 16.7 million colors  is a bit too many to scroll and pick from, mind numbing to advance through.
>
> It makes a very good test of one's ability to discriminate between
> shades that are very closely related.

That may be so, but that is not the purpose of an office suite. Even professional graphics programmes are smart enough to offer their users a limited selection of colours in their palettes. If another shade is required, it can be created, no matter whether the programme is called Photoshop or LibreOffice.

Also, 16+ million colours is an unnecessary drain on memory resources and might cause crashes on some computers.

Christoph

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jonathon-6 jonathon-6
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Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

In reply to this post by Heiko Tietze-2


On 16/11/16 10:53, Heiko Tietze wrote:

> I forward your message to the ML. As you may know we will have better user
> palette management in 5.3. Meaning you can add colors in the area style
> dialog to the newly introduced 'custom palette'. The former palette
> management at Tools > Options > Color has been removed. Also document
> colors will work now.

Have those changes been incorporates into the 5.3 alpha version that is
available from
https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/?type=deb-x86_64&version=5.3.0&lang=af
  ?

jonathon


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V Stuart Foote V Stuart Foote
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Re: "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice

toki wrote
On 16/11/16 10:53, Heiko Tietze wrote:

> I forward your message to the ML. As you may know we will have better user
> palette management in 5.3. Meaning you can add colors in the area style
> dialog to the newly introduced 'custom palette'. The former palette
> management at Tools > Options > Color has been removed. Also document
> colors will work now.

Have those changes been incorporates into the 5.3 alpha version that is
available from
https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/?type=deb-x86_64&version=5.3.0&lang=af
  ?

jonathon
Yes pallet management is in the alpha 1+ build, but you would do better with the 5.3.0 beta1 builds:

http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/pre-releases/deb/x86_64/LibreOfficeDev_5.3.0.0.beta1_Linux_x86-64_deb.tar.gz
or
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/pre-releases/win/x86_64/LibreOfficeDev_5.3.0.0.beta1_Win_x64.msi
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