[steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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[steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

Hello,

as many of you know, we're right before filing the application for
legally setting up the Foundation.

For the process of filing, it is highly advisable to have a lawyer
assisting us and acting as official point of contact. Not only will some
legal topics come up, but also being represented by a lawyer greatly
helps in being perceived as serious entity by the authorities.

Among the lawyer's tasks there will be the communication with the
authorities, acting on legal questions, and preparing the filing
documents in a way they fit the legal requirements. Unfortunately,
German law makes it very complicated for lawyers to act pro bono on
these kinds of things (which is different to e.g. the US), so we plan to
officially contract a lawyer to assist us.

In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
3.000,- € in total. This is the sum one of our preferred lawyers has
mentioned to us, and given that several hours of work for professional
services have to be invested, I consider that amount very well spent.

Depending on the lawyer and the services used, hourly rates of about
50-150 € are fairly normal in Germany, and I expect the process to take
a few hours of time to be completed, especially given the "speciality"
with the membership we have come up with.

Thoughts welcome.

Florian

--
Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Charles-H. Schulz Charles-H. Schulz
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

A lawyer is indispensable I think, and the fees sound reasonnable . +1

Charles.
Le 12 août 2011 17:34, "Florian Effenberger" <[hidden email]>
a écrit :

> Hello,
>
> as many of you know, we're right before filing the application for
> legally setting up the Foundation.
>
> For the process of filing, it is highly advisable to have a lawyer
> assisting us and acting as official point of contact. Not only will some
> legal topics come up, but also being represented by a lawyer greatly
> helps in being perceived as serious entity by the authorities.
>
> Among the lawyer's tasks there will be the communication with the
> authorities, acting on legal questions, and preparing the filing
> documents in a way they fit the legal requirements. Unfortunately,
> German law makes it very complicated for lawyers to act pro bono on
> these kinds of things (which is different to e.g. the US), so we plan to
> officially contract a lawyer to assist us.
>
> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
> weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
> 3.000,- € in total. This is the sum one of our preferred lawyers has
> mentioned to us, and given that several hours of work for professional
> services have to be invested, I consider that amount very well spent.
>
> Depending on the lawyer and the services used, hourly rates of about
> 50-150 € are fairly normal in Germany, and I expect the process to take
> a few hours of time to be completed, especially given the "speciality"
> with the membership we have come up with.
>
> Thoughts welcome.
>
> Florian
>
> --
> Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
> Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
> Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
> Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
>
> --
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deleted
>

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Tom Tom
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi :)
I thought that was the purpose of the fund-raising that was a huge success.  
Proper accountants would have wrapped-up all these extra costs into the amount
originally asked for.  I kept quiet at the time because we were uncertain about
whether that much could be raised.  Hindsight is great like that.  


The money is there for these extra costs and this is exactly what it was raised
for.  Skimping on these costs could end up costing TDF a LOT more if not done
well enough first time.  I thnk it's also worth looking around for better
qualified lawyers with more experience in this area of law rather than just
going for the ones with the cheapest quote.  


Regards from
Tom :)




________________________________
From: Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Fri, 12 August, 2011 16:34:21
Subject: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up
process

Hello,

as many of you know, we're right before filing the application for legally
setting up the Foundation.

For the process of filing, it is highly advisable to have a lawyer assisting us
and acting as official point of contact. Not only will some legal topics come
up, but also being represented by a lawyer greatly helps in being perceived as
serious entity by the authorities.

Among the lawyer's tasks there will be the communication with the authorities,
acting on legal questions, and preparing the filing documents in a way they fit
the legal requirements. Unfortunately, German law makes it very complicated for
lawyers to act pro bono on these kinds of things (which is different to e.g. the
US), so we plan to officially contract a lawyer to assist us.

In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few weeks, I'd
like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of 3.000,- € in total. This
is the sum one of our preferred lawyers has mentioned to us, and given that
several hours of work for professional services have to be invested, I consider
that amount very well spent.

Depending on the lawyer and the services used, hourly rates of about 50-150 €
are fairly normal in Germany, and I expect the process to take a few hours of
time to be completed, especially given the "speciality" with the membership we
have come up with.

Thoughts welcome.

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Tom Tom
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
Hi :)
+1
definitely.
Regards from
Tom :)




________________________________
From: Charles-H. Schulz <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Fri, 12 August, 2011 16:55:51
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up
process

A lawyer is indispensable I think, and the fees sound reasonnable . +1

Charles.
Le 12 août 2011 17:34, "Florian Effenberger" <[hidden email]>
a écrit :

> Hello,
>
> as many of you know, we're right before filing the application for
> legally setting up the Foundation.
>
> For the process of filing, it is highly advisable to have a lawyer
> assisting us and acting as official point of contact. Not only will some
> legal topics come up, but also being represented by a lawyer greatly
> helps in being perceived as serious entity by the authorities.
>
> Among the lawyer's tasks there will be the communication with the
> authorities, acting on legal questions, and preparing the filing
> documents in a way they fit the legal requirements. Unfortunately,
> German law makes it very complicated for lawyers to act pro bono on
> these kinds of things (which is different to e.g. the US), so we plan to
> officially contract a lawyer to assist us.
>
> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
> weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
> 3.000,- € in total. This is the sum one of our preferred lawyers has
> mentioned to us, and given that several hours of work for professional
> services have to be invested, I consider that amount very well spent.
>
> Depending on the lawyer and the services used, hourly rates of about
> 50-150 € are fairly normal in Germany, and I expect the process to take
> a few hours of time to be completed, especially given the "speciality"
> with the membership we have come up with.
>
> Thoughts welcome.
>
> Florian
>
> --
> Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
> Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
> Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
> Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
>
> --
> Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
[hidden email]
> Problems?
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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> List archive:
http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/
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deleted
>

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de-jourdain de-jourdain
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
+1

David

2011/8/12 Charles-H. Schulz <[hidden email]>

> A lawyer is indispensable I think, and the fees sound reasonnable . +1
>
> Charles.
> Le 12 août 2011 17:34, "Florian Effenberger" <
> [hidden email]>
> a écrit :
> > Hello,
> >
> > as many of you know, we're right before filing the application for
> > legally setting up the Foundation.
> >
> > For the process of filing, it is highly advisable to have a lawyer
> > assisting us and acting as official point of contact. Not only will some
> > legal topics come up, but also being represented by a lawyer greatly
> > helps in being perceived as serious entity by the authorities.
> >
> > Among the lawyer's tasks there will be the communication with the
> > authorities, acting on legal questions, and preparing the filing
> > documents in a way they fit the legal requirements. Unfortunately,
> > German law makes it very complicated for lawyers to act pro bono on
> > these kinds of things (which is different to e.g. the US), so we plan to
> > officially contract a lawyer to assist us.
> >
> > In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
> > weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
> > 3.000,- € in total. This is the sum one of our preferred lawyers has
> > mentioned to us, and given that several hours of work for professional
> > services have to be invested, I consider that amount very well spent.
> >
> > Depending on the lawyer and the services used, hourly rates of about
> > 50-150 € are fairly normal in Germany, and I expect the process to take
> > a few hours of time to be completed, especially given the "speciality"
> > with the membership we have come up with.
> >
> > Thoughts welcome.
> >
> > Florian
> >
> > --
> > Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
> > Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
> > Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
> > Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
> [hidden email]
> > Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > List archive:
> http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/
> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
> >
>
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Paulo de Souza Lima-3 Paulo de Souza Lima-3
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

I'm not sure if I'm able to vote on this matter. But if so, +1

2011/8/12 David Emmerich Jourdain <[hidden email]>

> +1
>
> David
>
> 2011/8/12 Charles-H. Schulz <[hidden email]>
>
> > A lawyer is indispensable I think, and the fees sound reasonnable . +1
> >
> > Charles.
> > Le 12 août 2011 17:34, "Florian Effenberger" <
> > [hidden email]>
> > a écrit :
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > as many of you know, we're right before filing the application for
> > > legally setting up the Foundation.
> > >
> > > For the process of filing, it is highly advisable to have a lawyer
> > > assisting us and acting as official point of contact. Not only will
> some
> > > legal topics come up, but also being represented by a lawyer greatly
> > > helps in being perceived as serious entity by the authorities.
> > >
> > > Among the lawyer's tasks there will be the communication with the
> > > authorities, acting on legal questions, and preparing the filing
> > > documents in a way they fit the legal requirements. Unfortunately,
> > > German law makes it very complicated for lawyers to act pro bono on
> > > these kinds of things (which is different to e.g. the US), so we plan
> to
> > > officially contract a lawyer to assist us.
> > >
> > > In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
> > > weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
> > > 3.000,- € in total. This is the sum one of our preferred lawyers has
> > > mentioned to us, and given that several hours of work for professional
> > > services have to be invested, I consider that amount very well spent.
> > >
> > > Depending on the lawyer and the services used, hourly rates of about
> > > 50-150 € are fairly normal in Germany, and I expect the process to take
> > > a few hours of time to be completed, especially given the "speciality"
> > > with the membership we have come up with.
> > >
> > > Thoughts welcome.
> > >
> > > Florian
> > >
> > > --
> > > Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
> > > Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
> > > Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
> > > Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
> > >
> > > --
> > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
> > [hidden email]
> > > Problems?
> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> > > Posting guidelines + more:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> > > List archive:
> > http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/
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> > deleted
> > >
> >
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> > deleted
> >
>
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>


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Thorsten Behrens Thorsten Behrens
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Florian Effenberger wrote:
> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a
> few weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum
> of 3.000,- € in total.
>
+1 - this has my approval.

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Varun Mittal Varun Mittal
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

+1

Best Regards

Varun
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 6:04 AM, Thorsten Behrens <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Florian Effenberger wrote:
> > In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a
> > few weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum
> > of 3.000,- € in total.
> >
> +1 - this has my approval.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -- Thorsten
>
> --
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Eliane Domingos de Sousa Eliane Domingos de Sousa
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

Good night!

I understand that is a decision of the SC, but I will give my opinion.
Totally agree

Best regards.

Eliane Domingos de Sousa
gtalk/skype: elianedomingos
twitter: eliane_domingos
identica/facebook: elianedomingos

Em 12-08-2011 22:31, Varun Mittal escreveu:

> +1
>
> Best Regards
>
> Varun
> On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 6:04 AM, Thorsten Behrens<
> [hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> Florian Effenberger wrote:
>>> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a
>>> few weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum
>>> of 3.000,- € in total.
>>>
>> +1 - this has my approval.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -- Thorsten
>>
>> --
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>>

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André Schnabel André Schnabel
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi,

> Von: Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>

>
> For the process of filing, it is highly advisable to have a lawyer
> assisting us and acting as official point of contact. Not only will some
> legal topics come up, but also being represented by a lawyer greatly
> helps in being perceived as serious entity by the authorities.
>
...

>
> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
> weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
> 3.000,- € in total.

+1

regards,

André

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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

Hi,

Andre Schnabel wrote on 2011-08-15 13:35:

>> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
>> weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
>> 3.000,- € in total.
>
> +1

thanks. We right now have 4 out of 6 necessary votes, so I will wait
before closing the ballot.

BTW, in the meantime I researched a bit, and got also feedback from the
lawyer we plan to contract, and in fact, the hourly rates seem to be
higher as anticipated. Several German websites talk about hourly rates
with an average of 180 €, not going below 120 €, so my assumption with
50 € was obviously too low. In a nutshell: Based on the normal sums
occuring, that fixed price of 3.000 € indeed sounds like a very good deal.

Florian

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Christoph Noack Christoph Noack
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

Hi Florian, all!

Am Montag, den 15.08.2011, 15:28 +0200 schrieb Florian Effenberger:

> Andre Schnabel wrote on 2011-08-15 13:35:
>
> >> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
> >> weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
> >> 3.000,- € in total.
> >
> > +1
>
> thanks. We right now have 4 out of 6 necessary votes, so I will wait
> before closing the ballot.

Since Sophie did not reply so far, here is the deputy's vote: +1

Cheers,
Christoph


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sophi sophi
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi all,
On 12/08/2011 17:34, Florian Effenberger wrote:
[...]

> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
> weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
> 3.000,- € in total.
+1
Kind regards
Sophie

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sophi sophi
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Christoph Noack
On 15/08/2011 22:30, Christoph Noack wrote:

> Hi Florian, all!
>
> Am Montag, den 15.08.2011, 15:28 +0200 schrieb Florian Effenberger:
>> Andre Schnabel wrote on 2011-08-15 13:35:
>>
>>>> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
>>>> weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
>>>> 3.000,- € in total.
>>> +1
>> thanks. We right now have 4 out of 6 necessary votes, so I will wait
>> before closing the ballot.
> Since Sophie did not reply so far, here is the deputy's vote: +1
Oups, sorry Christoph, I didn't see your mail before posting mine.
Thanks for taking care and sorry also for the delay in my answer to the
vote.
Kind regards
Sophie



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Michael Meeks Michael Meeks
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Christoph Noack

On Mon, 2011-08-15 at 22:30 +0200, Christoph Noack wrote:
> Since Sophie did not reply so far, here is the deputy's vote: +1

        Ditto from me I guess :-)

        ATB,

                Michael.

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italovignoli italovignoli
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Charles-H. Schulz
> Le 12 août 2011 17:34, "Florian Effenberger" <[hidden email]>
> a écrit :

>> In order to have legal advice for the process, which might take a few
>> weeks, I'd like to ask the steering committee to approve a sum of
>> 3.000,- € in total. This is the sum one of our preferred lawyers has
>> mentioned to us, and given that several hours of work for professional
>> services have to be invested, I consider that amount very well spent.

+1

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Italo Vignoli
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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Michael Meeks
Hello,

I just counted the votes, and I found at least these voting +1:

Florian
Charles
Italo
Thorsten
André
Sophie

Plus Michael and Christoph and deputies, plus some "non-binding" votes,
so I hereby close the vote and just added it as an official decision to
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions

@André: I ws not sure on how to reflect the current voting - Michael and
Christoph voted +1, but the seat holders they are deputies for voted
themselves. I wrote "approved with votes of 8 voting members (including
two deputy votes)" - should that be just 6 voting members instead, to
make clear only 6 people had "valid" votes?

Thanks for your support!
Florian

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Olivier Hallot Olivier Hallot
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

I thought I voted yet....

+1

Olivier

Em 17-08-2011 07:41, Florian Effenberger escreveu:

> Hello,
>
> I just counted the votes, and I found at least these voting +1:
>
> Florian
> Charles
> Italo
> Thorsten
> André
> Sophie
>
> Plus Michael and Christoph and deputies, plus some "non-binding"
> votes, so I hereby close the vote and just added it as an official
> decision to http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions
>
> @André: I ws not sure on how to reflect the current voting - Michael
> and Christoph voted +1, but the seat holders they are deputies for
> voted themselves. I wrote "approved with votes of 8 voting members
> (including two deputy votes)" - should that be just 6 voting members
> instead, to make clear only 6 people had "valid" votes?
>
> Thanks for your support!
> Florian
>

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Tom Tom
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

In reply to this post by Florian Effenberger
Hi :)
I think that counts as 6 votes with none against, so it's "nem con" or
something.  The votes from deputies doesn't count if the  people they are
deputies for have voted.  Not that it makes much difference since it's still a
strong majority with none against.  

Regards from
Tom :)



________________________________
From: Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wed, 17 August, 2011 11:41:29
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up
process

Hello,

I just counted the votes, and I found at least these voting +1:

Florian
Charles
Italo
Thorsten
André
Sophie

Plus Michael and Christoph and deputies, plus some "non-binding" votes, so I
hereby close the vote and just added it as an official decision to
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Decisions

@André: I ws not sure on how to reflect the current voting - Michael and
Christoph voted +1, but the seat holders they are deputies for voted themselves.
I wrote "approved with votes of 8 voting members (including two deputy votes)" -
should that be just 6 voting members instead, to make clear only 6 people had
"valid" votes?

Thanks for your support!
Florian

-- Florian Effenberger <[hidden email]>
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Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
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Florian Effenberger Florian Effenberger
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Re: [steering-discuss] contracting a lawyer for the foundation's set-up process

Hi Tom,

Tom Davies wrote on 2011-08-17 12:48:
> I think that counts as 6 votes with none against, so it's "nem con" or
> something.  The votes from deputies doesn't count if the  people they are
> deputies for have voted.  Not that it makes much difference since it's still a
> strong majority with none against.

I think so, too - but André planned the page, so maybe he has some
insight on how to have the wording ;)

Florian

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