synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

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Gukk_Devel Gukk_Devel
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synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

Hi,

when I read earlier mails correct, it seems to me, that we will get two
tools for working on documentations.

alfresco for the english part and for french, and other languages on
ODFAuthors.

In my eyes we now need to synchronize the content of this two tools. to
lighten translations.

how can this be solved?

Best regards
Karl-Heinz



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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

Hi, :-)

I see it as purely a manual effort, ATM. I would not envision any
attempt at an automated process until a genuine need actually arises
in the future.

David Nelson

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Jeremy Cartwright Jeremy Cartwright
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by Gukk_Devel
On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 17:26:35 +0100
Karl-Heinz Gödderz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> alfresco for the english part and for french, and other languages on
> ODFAuthors.

To be clear, there are spaces set up in Alfresco for many (20+)
languages, and more can be set up as needed.


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Gukk_Devel Gukk_Devel
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

Jeremy Cartwright schrieb:

> On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 17:26:35 +0100
> Karl-Heinz Gödderz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> alfresco for the english part and for french, and other languages on
>> ODFAuthors.
>>    
>
> To be clear, there are spaces set up in Alfresco for many (20+)
> languages, and more can be set up as needed.
>
>
> -- jdc
>
>  
Hi Jeremy,

it isn't space - it's motivation.

Most of the "OOo-veterans" are used to work with OOoAuthors and are not
interested to use the new system because the old one works and it takes
time to learn a new CMS.

So only newbies on LibO would use alfresco and the others want to stay
with ODFAuthors.

There should be no pressure to use alfresco because with this, we would
lose all the "old" authors.  Alfresco has now to be given a chance to
prove being better than ODFAuthors and has to convince them.

In the meantime there has to be a coordination which documents is on
alfresco and which on ODFAuthors so that each author can use the system
that fits him best.

greetings
Karl-Heinz




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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

Hi Karl-Heinz, :-)

It's not a subject we're going to look at for the moment. There's a
lot more urgent stuff to do. We need to focus on workflow, and getting
some urgently-needed documentation done.

Like I said before, we can look at the issue further in the future if
a *genuine* need is proven. For the moment, this seems to be simply an
idea of yours alone.

But the idea of an RSS feed notifying about events on the site is one
to look at, and is far more immediately feasible.

David Nelson

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eskroni eskroni
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

Hi David,

2011/1/31 David Nelson <[hidden email]>:
> Hi Karl-Heinz, :-)
>
> It's not a subject we're going to look at for the moment. There's a
> lot more urgent stuff to do. We need to focus on workflow, and getting
> some urgently-needed documentation done.
>
> Like I said before, we can look at the issue further in the future if
> a *genuine* need is proven. For the moment, this seems to be simply an
> idea of yours alone.

What is an idea of Karl-Heinz alone?
If you don't want any translations into other languages just say so. I
think, we can manage to get documentation of our own.

Sigrid

PS: Yes, I am angry and upset. You just don't get it how this
community works. You've manged to discourage me from contributing to
the english documentation, although I might have been able to
contribute quite a bit. But I cannot accept it, that you hinder my
work for this community any longer.

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davidnelson davidnelson
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

Hi Sigrid, all, :-)

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 22:51, Sigrid Carrera
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> What is an idea of Karl-Heinz alone?
> If you don't want any translations into other languages just say so. I
> think, we can manage to get documentation of our own.
>
> Sigrid
>
> PS: Yes, I am angry and upset. You just don't get it how this
> community works. You've manged to discourage me from contributing to
> the english documentation, although I might have been able to
> contribute quite a bit. But I cannot accept it, that you hinder my
> work for this community any longer.

If this is going to become an irrational discussion then I really
don't feel like taking part in it, Sigrid. I have no idea what you're
talking about. :-(

David Nelson

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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by davidnelson
Le 31/01/11 15:51, Sigrid Carrera a écrit :

Hi Sigrid,

> PS: Yes, I am angry and upset. You just don't get it how this
> community works. You've manged to discourage me from contributing to
> the english documentation, although I might have been able to
> contribute quite a bit. But I cannot accept it, that you hinder my
> work for this community any longer.
>

Would you care to explain how and why you feel hindered ? For the sake
of those who may not know (I certainly don't, for one)

Alex


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Tom Tom
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by eskroni
My post is at the bottom.

Tom



________________________________
From: Sigrid Carrera <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, 31 January, 2011 14:51:03
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] synchronization of ODFAuthors and
alfresco

Hi David,

2011/1/31 David Nelson <[hidden email]>:
> Hi Karl-Heinz, :-)
>
> It's not a subject we're going to look at for the moment. There's a
> lot more urgent stuff to do. We need to focus on workflow, and getting
> some urgently-needed documentation done.
>
> Like I said before, we can look at the issue further in the future if
> a *genuine* need is proven. For the moment, this seems to be simply an
> idea of yours alone.

What is an idea of Karl-Heinz alone?
If you don't want any translations into other languages just say so. I
think, we can manage to get documentation of our own.

Sigrid

PS: Yes, I am angry and upset. You just don't get it how this
community works. You've manged to discourage me from contributing to
the english documentation, although I might have been able to
contribute quite a bit. But I cannot accept it, that you hinder my
work for this community any longer.


Hi Sigrid :)

Sorry that you are upset.  A lot of people have been doing a lot of good work
here and there is still a lot more that needs to be done that needs to be
completed fast.

Please don't take too much notice of criticisms from me or anyone.  The
community is evolving as people join and bring new ideas in.  Also the rapid
development of new tools keeps changing things too.  This is quite a shake-up
from the OOo community!  


I think most people find it easier to develop from work produced by other people
or to criticise that work to try to develop something from it.  Either way it
can be de-motivating to original authors but we can only get an excellent
end-result if people are willing to face that type of criticism and keep writing
new things or proof-reading what is there already.

Many apologies and regards from
Tom :)



     
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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by Gukk_Devel
Le 31/01/11 11:13, Karl-Heinz Gödderz a écrit :

Hi,


> it isn't space - it's motivation.
>
> Most of the "OOo-veterans" are used to work with OOoAuthors and are not
> interested to use the new system because the old one works and it takes
> time to learn a new CMS.
>
> So only newbies on LibO would use alfresco and the others want to stay
> with ODFAuthors.

I do not consider myself a newbie with regard to the documentation
project, yet I will be using, or at least experimenting, with Alfresco
and its workflow for any French or English documentation I might
produce. As an example, I am currently working offline on the Getting
Started with Base translation into French. I do not feel forced into
using Alfresco at all, the simple fact of the matter for me was that I
found OOoAuthors and the workflow far too confusing for it to be of any
use to me. However, that is my personal choice, and I'm certainly not
going to impose it on anyone else.


>
> There should be no pressure to use alfresco because with this, we would
> lose all the "old" authors.  Alfresco has now to be given a chance to
> prove being better than ODFAuthors and has to convince them.

I have seen no pressure from anyone here to use Alfresco, I don't feel
under pressure to do so, I will try it because I want to. If it doesn't
suit my needs, I can just go back to doing it by myself and making my
documents available through other channels.

>
> In the meantime there has to be a coordination which documents is on
> alfresco and which on ODFAuthors so that each author can use the system
> that fits him best.

The wiki would seem like a good place to put this kind of information,
but IMHO it should be left up to the native language project members to
update the status of the documentation and inform others of who is doing
what and where (if known).


Alex






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eskroni eskroni
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
Hi Alex,

2011/1/31 Alexander Thurgood <[hidden email]>:

> Le 31/01/11 15:51, Sigrid Carrera a écrit :
>
> Hi Sigrid,
>
>> PS: Yes, I am angry and upset. You just don't get it how this
>> community works. You've manged to discourage me from contributing to
>> the english documentation, although I might have been able to
>> contribute quite a bit. But I cannot accept it, that you hinder my
>> work for this community any longer.
>>
>
> Would you care to explain how and why you feel hindered ? For the sake
> of those who may not know (I certainly don't, for one)

Oh, when I said I want to proofread some documentation, I was told,
that whatever I correct, has to be proofread again by a native english
speaker. So clearly, my contribution there was not welcome.

Why I feel hindered? I can't get the documentation from the Alfresco
site. I don't have an account there and honestly, I don't want one.
Only the bits, that are transferred to the website. There's no
information here on the list, what's done, so I can't get a timely
translation ready. And then his comment, that the question from
Karl-Heinz was just one persons own wish and that he doesn't want to
work on improving the the communication between the two systems is
quite discouraging.

I think, that this shows, that he cares only for the english
documentation and not so much (I'm not saying nothing!) about the
international one. Only about the documentation teams, that are
willing to join him on Alfresco server, the other teams who don't want
to use it, can see for themselves, where to get the needed
information.

Sigrid

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Alex Thurgood Alex Thurgood
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

Le 31/01/11 16:41, Sigrid Carrera a écrit :

Hi Sigrid,

>
> Oh, when I said I want to proofread some documentation, I was told,
> that whatever I correct, has to be proofread again by a native english
> speaker. So clearly, my contribution there was not welcome.

Hmm, I wouldn't consider it like that, perhaps you are taking things too
personally. If I write documentation in French, or German (which I can,
I just don't do it very often), I would expect a native mother tongue
speaker to proofread and correct it as necessary. Obviously, if no one
volunteers up to do it, then well that's just tough and the document
would go "live" with all its faults and potentially awkward turns of
phrase. Even if I were to draft in English, I would at least expect
someone to go over it and check for spelling mistakes, dropped words,
"brain outages" and the like, just for the sake of completeness. I don't
find that hard to accept, if the final document reads well for the
intended audience.


>
> Why I feel hindered? I can't get the documentation from the Alfresco
> site. I don't have an account there and honestly, I don't want one.
> Only the bits, that are transferred to the website. There's no
> information here on the list, what's done, so I can't get a timely
> translation ready. And then his comment, that the question from
> Karl-Heinz was just one persons own wish and that he doesn't want to
> work on improving the the communication between the two systems is
> quite discouraging.

Ultimately, it would only take one person to have an account there to be
the go-between. On the other hand, why doesn't ODFAuthors have something
like you are suggesting for those working with Alfresco ? The effort
works both ways IMHO. Why should those who want to work with Alfresco
have to have an account with ODFAuthors ?

Ideally, both systems could either have liaison officers, or some form
of automatic notification system. I don't really see why the onus should
be on the Alfresco system to do so when ODFAuthors does not (as far as I
know, but please correct me if I'm wrong). Or, as I mentioned in my
other post, the native language projects could have their own wiki page
which would keep people abreast of who is doing what - this would
require the documentation authors to submit what they are doing to the
LibO wiki page native language coordinator or update it themselves. The
French N-L group already have such a page.


Alex





>
> I think, that this shows, that he cares only for the english
> documentation and not so much (I'm not saying nothing!) about the
> international one. Only about the documentation teams, that are
> willing to join him on Alfresco server, the other teams who don't want
> to use it, can see for themselves, where to get the needed
> information.
>
> Sigrid
>



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eskroni eskroni
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

Hi Alex,

2011/1/31 Alexander Thurgood <[hidden email]>:

> Le 31/01/11 16:41, Sigrid Carrera a écrit :
>
> Hi Sigrid,
>
>>
>> Oh, when I said I want to proofread some documentation, I was told,
>> that whatever I correct, has to be proofread again by a native english
>> speaker. So clearly, my contribution there was not welcome.
>
> Hmm, I wouldn't consider it like that, perhaps you are taking things too
> personally. If I write documentation in French, or German (which I can,
> I just don't do it very often), I would expect a native mother tongue
> speaker to proofread and correct it as necessary. Obviously, if no one
> volunteers up to do it, then well that's just tough and the document
> would go "live" with all its faults and potentially awkward turns of
> phrase. Even if I were to draft in English, I would at least expect
> someone to go over it and check for spelling mistakes, dropped words,
> "brain outages" and the like, just for the sake of completeness. I don't
> find that hard to accept, if the final document reads well for the
> intended audience.

Perhaps. But from the tone of that said email I got the impression,
that my work isn't wanted. If I translate something say from German to
English, yes I would want someone else to proofread, because I am too
much in German grammar mode and I know, that thhis is not how a native
English speaker would write that content. But I am quite confident,
that when I edit a text, that has been created / edited by a native
speaker, I won't change grammar.

> Ultimately, it would only take one person to have an account there to be
> the go-between. On the other hand, why doesn't ODFAuthors have something
> like you are suggesting for those working with Alfresco ? The effort
> works both ways IMHO. Why should those who want to work with Alfresco
> have to have an account with ODFAuthors ?

They don't. Jean is nice enough to announce when there are chapters
done and ready for rebranding. Heck, the last set was uploaded by Jean
to Alfresco.

> Ideally, both systems could either have liaison officers, or some form
> of automatic notification system. I don't really see why the onus should
> be on the Alfresco system to do so when ODFAuthors does not (as far as I
> know, but please correct me if I'm wrong). Or, as I mentioned in my
> other post, the native language projects could have their own wiki page
> which would keep people abreast of who is doing what - this would
> require the documentation authors to submit what they are doing to the
> LibO wiki page native language coordinator or update it themselves. The
> French N-L group already have such a page.

That's right. A wiki page would be good. But this also means, that the
wiki page needs to have the documents in question. Just a list saying
"I'm working on this document" doesn't do it if I have no idea where I
can find the "original" document, that I'm going to translate.

Sigrid

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Tom Tom
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
HI :)

I would be happy to see Sigrid able to publish documents in English.  As stated
many times native speakers are often far from perfect and we all suffer from
"odd outages" anyway.  I do understand the issue but i think the decision was
made fast (hastily?) and based on assumptions of "general case".  Sigrid's
English is more than sufficiently good imo as are a few other people's in the
documentation team.  


Many regards from
Tom :)




________________________________
From: Alexander Thurgood <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, 31 January, 2011 15:58:44
Subject: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and
alfresco

Le 31/01/11 16:41, Sigrid Carrera a écrit :

Hi Sigrid,

>
> Oh, when I said I want to proofread some documentation, I was told,
> that whatever I correct, has to be proofread again by a native english
> speaker. So clearly, my contribution there was not welcome.

Hmm, I wouldn't consider it like that, perhaps you are taking things too
personally. If I write documentation in French, or German (which I can,
I just don't do it very often), I would expect a native mother tongue
speaker to proofread and correct it as necessary. Obviously, if no one
volunteers up to do it, then well that's just tough and the document
would go "live" with all its faults and potentially awkward turns of
phrase. Even if I were to draft in English, I would at least expect
someone to go over it and check for spelling mistakes, dropped words,
"brain outages" and the like, just for the sake of completeness. I don't
find that hard to accept, if the final document reads well for the
intended audience.


>
> Why I feel hindered? I can't get the documentation from the Alfresco
> site. I don't have an account there and honestly, I don't want one.
> Only the bits, that are transferred to the website. There's no
> information here on the list, what's done, so I can't get a timely
> translation ready. And then his comment, that the question from
> Karl-Heinz was just one persons own wish and that he doesn't want to
> work on improving the the communication between the two systems is
> quite discouraging.

Ultimately, it would only take one person to have an account there to be
the go-between. On the other hand, why doesn't ODFAuthors have something
like you are suggesting for those working with Alfresco ? The effort
works both ways IMHO. Why should those who want to work with Alfresco
have to have an account with ODFAuthors ?

Ideally, both systems could either have liaison officers, or some form
of automatic notification system. I don't really see why the onus should
be on the Alfresco system to do so when ODFAuthors does not (as far as I
know, but please correct me if I'm wrong). Or, as I mentioned in my
other post, the native language projects could have their own wiki page
which would keep people abreast of who is doing what - this would
require the documentation authors to submit what they are doing to the
LibO wiki page native language coordinator or update it themselves. The
French N-L group already have such a page.


Alex





>
> I think, that this shows, that he cares only for the english
> documentation and not so much (I'm not saying nothing!) about the
> international one. Only about the documentation teams, that are
> willing to join him on Alfresco server, the other teams who don't want
> to use it, can see for themselves, where to get the needed
> information.
>
> Sigrid
>



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Tom Tom
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by eskroni
Hi :)

I think the NL wiki would only need a list of documents and links to where they
can be accessed and edited.  A possibly 3rd copy of the document would probably
only add to the current possible confusion.

Regards from
Tom :)




________________________________
From: Sigrid Carrera <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, 31 January, 2011 16:10:51
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and
alfresco

Hi Alex,
...

That's right. A wiki page would be good. But this also means, that the
wiki page needs to have the documents in question. Just a list saying
"I'm working on this document" doesn't do it if I have no idea where I
can find the "original" document, that I'm going to translate.

Sigrid

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Jean Weber Jean Weber
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by eskroni
I would be happy to copy the published chapters of English user guides
from the Alfresco site to the LibreOffice section of the ODFAuthors
site. That will make them conveniently available to translators who want
to use ODFAuthors. Published chapters will also be available on the
LibreOffice wiki, and translators can copy them from there (without
needing an Alfresco login), but if it's easier to have copies on the
ODFAuthors site, let me know.

However, anyone wanting to help work on chapters in English during
development (such as reviewing) will need to have an Alfresco account.
This really is not any different from people at OOo needing an
ODFAuthors account to work on drafts of documents.

--Jean


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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by davidnelson
On Mon, 2011-01-31 at 23:00 +0800, David Nelson wrote:

> Hi Sigrid, all, :-)
>
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 22:51, Sigrid Carrera
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > What is an idea of Karl-Heinz alone?
> > If you don't want any translations into other languages just say so. I
> > think, we can manage to get documentation of our own.
> >
> > Sigrid
> >
> > PS: Yes, I am angry and upset. You just don't get it how this
> > community works. You've manged to discourage me from contributing to
> > the english documentation, although I might have been able to
> > contribute quite a bit. But I cannot accept it, that you hinder my
> > work for this community any longer.
>
> If this is going to become an irrational discussion then I really
> don't feel like taking part in it, Sigrid. I have no idea what you're
> talking about. :-(
>
> David Nelson
>

David,

I think that is a big part of the problem. The tone of some of your
earlier messages left a bad impression on many of us. The fact that you
say you have no idea what we're talking about further suggests that you
are unaware of the way some of your notes sound to many people. When I
snapped at you some time ago about nagging me to do something I didn't
want to do, you said you had no idea why I reacted that way.

You also earlier made the statement "Courtesy is the same in all
languages". This statement is demonstrably incorrect or at least ignores
the cultural aspect; any cultural anthropologist (and members of other
disciplines) can cite many, many counterexamples. I didn't say anything
at the time because it seemed a waste of energy to continue the
discussion.

I am sure you are just under stress and not writing as carefully as you
could to give the impression you intend, but really you need to make
more effort to be aware of the way others might (mis)interpret your
words. Otherwise you may drive away a lot of valuable people.

--Jean


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Andreas Mantke Andreas Mantke
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by Jean Weber
Hi Jean, *,

Am Montag, 31. Januar 2011, 21:23:05 schrieb Jean Hollis Weber:
> I would be happy to copy the published chapters of English user guides
> from the Alfresco site to the LibreOffice section of the ODFAuthors
> site. That will make them conveniently available to translators who want
> to use ODFAuthors. Published chapters will also be available on the
> LibreOffice wiki, and translators can copy them from there (without
> needing an Alfresco login), but if it's easier to have copies on the
> ODFAuthors site, let me know.
>

I don't know if the Alfresco instance has WebDAV enabled. If so, you can copy the
documents via WebDAV to ODFAuthors. The Plone instance has the protocol enabled by
default. If the server that is runnig the Alfresco instance, is as fast as the one,
that runs ODFAuthors, then it should go smoothly.

Regards,
Andreas
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Gukk_Devel Gukk_Devel
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

In reply to this post by Alex Thurgood
Hi Alexander, @all,

first thank you for you kind answer instead of cutting my word as David did.

I think you got my intention to give a connection between those two
systems .

(comments see below)

Alexander Thurgood schrieb:

>
>> So only newbies on LibO would use alfresco and the others want to stay
>> with ODFAuthors.
>>    
>
> I do not consider myself a newbie with regard to the documentation
> project, yet I will be using, or at least experimenting, with Alfresco
> and its workflow for any French or English documentation I might
> produce. As an example, I am currently working offline on the Getting
> Started with Base translation into French. I do not feel forced into
> using Alfresco at all, the simple fact of the matter for me was that I
> found OOoAuthors and the workflow far too confusing for it to be of any
> use to me. However, that is my personal choice, and I'm certainly not
> going to impose it on anyone else.
>
>
>  

I'm also not a newbie and also got an account on both systems. Therefore
I perceived that problem.

> I have seen no pressure from anyone here to use Alfresco, I don't feel
> under pressure to do so, I will try it because I want to. If it doesn't
> suit my needs, I can just go back to doing it by myself and making my
> documents available through other channels.
>
>  

I read some mails stating that all ODFAuthor documents should be
integrated into alfresco as soon as possible.

And some answers given to the French NL-team seemed me the same problem.

> The wiki would seem like a good place to put this kind of information,
> but IMHO it should be left up to the native language project members to
> update the status of the documentation and inform others of who is doing
> what and where (if known).
>
>  

this was kind of solution I looked for.

Every document (final version) should be on both systems as Jean and
Andreas mentioned.


And as a great ease it would be, if there were a list of all existing
documents. Can they be provided by the systems?

Regards
Karl-Heinz

(sorry, but English is not my native Language, and dictionaries not
always the best)


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eskroni eskroni
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Re: synchronization of ODFAuthors and alfresco

Hi Karl-Heinz, all,

2011/2/1 Karl-Heinz Gödderz <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Alexander, @all,
>
> first thank you for you kind answer instead of cutting my word as David did.
>
> I think you got my intention to give a connection between those two
> systems .
>
> (comments see below)
>
> Alexander Thurgood schrieb:
>>
>>> So only newbies on LibO would use alfresco and the others want to stay
>>> with ODFAuthors.
>>>
>>
>> I do not consider myself a newbie with regard to the documentation
>> project, yet I will be using, or at least experimenting, with Alfresco
>> and its workflow for any French or English documentation I might
>> produce. As an example, I am currently working offline on the Getting
>> Started with Base translation into French. I do not feel forced into
>> using Alfresco at all, the simple fact of the matter for me was that I
>> found OOoAuthors and the workflow far too confusing for it to be of any
>> use to me. However, that is my personal choice, and I'm certainly not
>> going to impose it on anyone else.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I'm also not a newbie and also got an account on both systems. Therefore
> I perceived that problem.
>
>> I have seen no pressure from anyone here to use Alfresco, I don't feel
>> under pressure to do so, I will try it because I want to. If it doesn't
>> suit my needs, I can just go back to doing it by myself and making my
>> documents available through other channels.
>>
>>
>
> I read some mails stating that all ODFAuthor documents should be
> integrated into alfresco as soon as possible.
>
> And some answers given to the French NL-team seemed me the same problem.

I think, what would help is a mechanism like we have on ODFAuthors. If
a chapter is "published" (in other words, final) then you don't even
need an account on the website. You can just go there and download it.

If such a setting would be possible in Alfresco as well, then we don't
need to copy the files into the wiki and from there to ODFAuthors.

This would not require any extra work from any person at all.

Sigrid

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