typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

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siren siren
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typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

in these months Libreoffice gained new useful features and  team has
fixed many long-time-unsolved bugs

but there is a thing that, if we cannot strictly to define as a BUG, is,
at least, a  "defect" regarding the right typography

I mean the behavior of footnotes versus the text body contained in
subsequent pages

professionally formatted books, look like this

http://tli.tl/m2507H

as you can see, footnotes (last footnote) are perfectly vertically
aligned with the last line of text in following page

http://tli.tl/0740NZ (zoom in detail)

while if we insert a footnote in OpenOffice/Libreoffice, this is what we get

http://tli.tl/2mfCgT

an horrible difference between footnote and last line of body text that
result not aligned that makes appereance of documents with footnotes
very ugly

if making this enhancement is not too hard, it will be a great step
toward dtp for LibreOffice


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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

At 00:14 20/12/2012 +0800, Nobody Noname wrote:

>... there is a thing that, if we cannot strictly to define as a BUG,
>is, at least, a  "defect" regarding the right typography.  I mean
>the behavior of footnotes versus the text body contained in
>subsequent pages.  professionally formatted books, look like this
>[...] as you can see, footnotes (last footnote) are perfectly
>vertically aligned with the last line of text in following page,
>while if we insert a footnote in OpenOffice/Libreoffice, this is
>what we get [...] an horrible difference between footnote and last
>line of body text that result not aligned that makes appearance of
>documents with footnotes very ugly

Each page has an area within its margins where text may appear.  If
there is not sufficient space for a further line at the bottom of a
page, it will be carried over to the next page, possibly leaving a
small amount of unused vertical space within the text area of the
page.  If different pages have different type sizes or different
paragraph spacing - or even just a different number of paragraphs -
the bases of bottom lines may well not match up.  In the case of your
example, the spacing and the rule before the footnote and the reduced
type size of the footnote itself all add up to mean that there can be
no guarantee that the bases of the bottom lines will match up.

In order to correct this problem, you need to make small alteration
to details of one or other page.  It may be that you can remedy
things by changing the bottom page margin slightly - but if you do
that for the page style of the whole document, you are likely to
introduce similar problems on other pages.  The simplest solution may
be to increase slightly the line spacing on the second page.

>if making this enhancement is not too hard, it will be a great step
>toward dtp for LibreOffice

It's not clear what you want to happen here.  Do you want the line
spacing on your second page to be increased slightly so as better to
fill the page?  Or do you want the space before the footnote to be
increased?  Or both of these?  Or, if (as would be usual) you had
more than one paragraph on each page, would you want the paragraph
spacing to be adjusted to suit?  Or some combination of all these?

It's worth mentioning that you are comparing your word processor
results with - as you say - the appearance of a professionally
produced book.  In that case, a quite separate process - "layout" -
is carried out after the text is finalised.  This is done is layout
software, not in word processing software.  Any modifications to the
text - even minor ones - after this would potentially upset the
appearance, so this is done in the final stages of production.  And I
doubt whether this is ever completely automated, in fact: rather, I
imagine that expert user of layout software makes minor adjustments
to achieve the sort of smart appearance that you crave.

So you are asking for OpenOffice or LibreOffice to become layout
software as well as word processing software.  I have no idea whether
its developers would wish to do this.

I trust this helps.

Brian Barker



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Tom Tom
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Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

Hi :)
Wow!!  Errr, is that something that LaTex or Scribus might be better at?  If so can they read and work with the output from LO?
Regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: Brian Barker <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Thursday, 20 December 2012, 4:18
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)
>
>At 00:14 20/12/2012 +0800, Nobody Noname wrote:
>> ... there is a thing that, if we cannot strictly to define as a BUG, is, at least, a  "defect" regarding the right typography.  I mean the behavior of footnotes versus the text body contained in subsequent pages.  professionally formatted books, look like this [...] as you can see, footnotes (last footnote) are perfectly vertically aligned with the last line of text in following page, while if we insert a footnote in OpenOffice/Libreoffice, this is what we get [...] an horrible difference between footnote and last line of body text that result not aligned that makes appearance of documents with footnotes very ugly
>
>Each page has an area within its margins where text may appear.  If there is not sufficient space for a further line at the bottom of a page, it will be carried over to the next page, possibly leaving a small amount of unused vertical space within the text area of the page.  If different pages have different type sizes or different paragraph spacing - or even just a different number of paragraphs - the bases of bottom lines may well not match up.  In the case of your example, the spacing and the rule before the footnote and the reduced type size of the footnote itself all add up to mean that there can be no guarantee that the bases of the bottom lines will match up.
>
>In order to correct this problem, you need to make small alteration to details of one or other page.  It may be that you can remedy things by changing the bottom page margin slightly - but if you do that for the page style of the whole document, you are likely to introduce similar problems on other pages.  The simplest solution may be to increase slightly the line spacing on the second page.
>
>> if making this enhancement is not too hard, it will be a great step toward dtp for LibreOffice
>
>It's not clear what you want to happen here.  Do you want the line spacing on your second page to be increased slightly so as better to fill the page?  Or do you want the space before the footnote to be increased?  Or both of these?  Or, if (as would be usual) you had more than one paragraph on each page, would you want the paragraph spacing to be adjusted to suit?  Or some combination of all these?
>
>It's worth mentioning that you are comparing your word processor results with - as you say - the appearance of a professionally produced book.  In that case, a quite separate process - "layout" - is carried out after the text is finalised.  This is done is layout software, not in word processing software.  Any modifications to the text - even minor ones - after this would potentially upset the appearance, so this is done in the final stages of production.  And I doubt whether this is ever completely automated, in fact: rather, I imagine that expert user of layout software makes minor adjustments to achieve the sort of smart appearance that you crave.
>
>So you are asking for OpenOffice or LibreOffice to become layout software as well as word processing software.  I have no idea whether its developers would wish to do this.
>
>I trust this helps.
>
>Brian Barker
>
>
>
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John Jason Jordan John Jason Jordan
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Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:06:00 +0000 (GMT)
Tom Davies <[hidden email]> dijo:

>Wow!!  Errr, is that something that LaTex or Scribus might be better
>at?  If so can they read and work with the output from LO?

TeX, LaTeX, and their family can certainly do footnotes. However, I
don't think they are as capable at importing LO/OOo text as Scribus is.

Scribus will directly import text from Writer, and preserve styles in
the process. You can even map the Writer styles to Scribus styles if
you want. Scribus works very well with LO/OOo.

However, the current stable version of Scribus (1.41) lacks footnotes
and tables, although they are on the roadmap for the next release. As
for footnotes, however, Scribus will preserve the superscripts in the
text, and will convert the text of the footnotes to endnotes. After
importing the text to Scribus you can cut the endnotes off the end of
the story and paste in as a new story. The new story can be manually
threaded to text frames at the bottom of the appropriate pages. Unless
you have a gazillion footnotes, this works very well.

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Brian Barker Brian Barker
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Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

In reply to this post by Tom
At 06:06 20/12/2012 +0000, Tom Davies wrote:

>At 04:18 20/12/2012 +0000, Brian Barker wrote:
>>At 00:14 20/12/2012 +0800, Nobody Noname wrote:
>>>... there is a thing that, if we cannot strictly to define as a
>>>BUG, is, at least, a  "defect" regarding the right typography.  I
>>>mean the behavior of footnotes versus the text body contained in
>>>subsequent pages.  professionally formatted books, look like this
>>>[...] as you can see, footnotes (last footnote) are perfectly
>>>vertically aligned with the last line of text in following page,
>>>while if we insert a footnote in OpenOffice/Libreoffice, this is
>>>what we get [...] an horrible difference between footnote and last
>>>line of body text that result not aligned that makes appearance of
>>>documents with footnotes very ugly
>>
>>Each page has an area within its margins where text may appear.  If
>>there is not sufficient space for a further line at the bottom of a
>>page, it will be carried over to the next page, possibly leaving a
>>small amount of unused vertical space within the text area of the
>>page.  If different pages have different type sizes or different
>>paragraph spacing - or even just a different number of paragraphs -
>>the bases of bottom lines may well not match up.  In the case of
>>your example, the spacing and the rule before the footnote and the
>>reduced type size of the footnote itself all add up to mean that
>>there can be no guarantee that the bases of the bottom lines will match up.
>>
>>In order to correct this problem, you need to make small alteration
>>to details of one or other page.  It may be that you can remedy
>>things by changing the bottom page margin slightly - but if you do
>>that for the page style of the whole document, you are likely to
>>introduce similar problems on other pages.  The simplest solution
>>may be to increase slightly the line spacing on the second page.
>>
>>>if making this enhancement is not too hard, it will be a great
>>>step toward dtp for LibreOffice
>>
>>It's not clear what you want to happen here.  Do you want the line
>>spacing on your second page to be increased slightly so as better
>>to fill the page?  Or do you want the space before the footnote to
>>be increased?  Or both of these?  Or, if (as would be usual) you
>>had more than one paragraph on each page, would you want the
>>paragraph spacing to be adjusted to suit?  Or some combination of all these?
>>
>>It's worth mentioning that you are comparing your word processor
>>results with - as you say - the appearance of a professionally
>>produced book.  In that case, a quite separate process - "layout" -
>>is carried out after the text is finalised.  This is done is layout
>>software, not in word processing software.  Any modifications to
>>the text - even minor ones - after this would potentially upset the
>>appearance, so this is done in the final stages of production.  And
>>I doubt whether this is ever completely automated, in fact: rather,
>>I imagine that expert user of layout software makes minor
>>adjustments to achieve the sort of smart appearance that you crave.
>>
>>So you are asking for OpenOffice or LibreOffice to become layout
>>software as well as word processing software.  I have no idea
>>whether its developers would wish to do this.
>
>Wow!!  Errr, is that something that LaTex or Scribus might be better at?

I'm not an expert in layout software, but I suspect that yes: both of
these products have the required facilities.

>If so can they read and work with the output from LO?

Apparently Scribus can.  In any case, anyone working with layout
software tends to expect to start with fairly plain text, perhaps
with only italics, bold, superscripts, subscripts, and so on, along
with footnotes, marked in the text.  The clever stuff is then all
done in the layout software.

Brian Barker



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Tom Tom
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Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

In reply to this post by John Jason Jordan
Hi :)
Thanks :)  It is this sort of improving co-operation between different products that i really like about OpenSource. 

Imo It beats  having 1 massively bloated program with tons of features that almost no-one ever uses and that ends up with those features creating problems or deteriorating due to changes elsewhere in the program.  Just split functionality off into programs (or in some cases just add-ons) that can have a dedicated community that are able to get on with developing things themselves without having to ask people that deal with completely unrelated functionality if they can have permission. 

Regards from
Tom :)






>________________________________
> From: John Jason Jordan <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Thursday, 20 December 2012, 6:59
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)
>
>On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 06:06:00 +0000 (GMT)
>Tom Davies <[hidden email]> dijo:
>
>>Wow!!  Errr, is that something that LaTex or Scribus might be better
>>at?  If so can they read and work with the output from LO?
>
>TeX, LaTeX, and their family can certainly do footnotes. However, I
>don't think they are as capable at importing LO/OOo text as Scribus is.
>
>Scribus will directly import text from Writer, and preserve styles in
>the process. You can even map the Writer styles to Scribus styles if
>you want. Scribus works very well with LO/OOo.
>
>However, the current stable version of Scribus (1.41) lacks footnotes
>and tables, although they are on the roadmap for the next release. As
>for footnotes, however, Scribus will preserve the superscripts in the
>text, and will convert the text of the footnotes to endnotes. After
>importing the text to Scribus you can cut the endnotes off the end of
>the story and paste in as a new story. The new story can be manually
>threaded to text frames at the bottom of the appropriate pages. Unless
>you have a gazillion footnotes, this works very well.
>
>--
>For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: [hidden email]
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Dan Lewis Dan Lewis
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Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

In reply to this post by Brian Barker
On 12/19/2012 11:18 PM, Brian Barker wrote:

> At 00:14 20/12/2012 +0800, Nobody Noname wrote:
>> ... there is a thing that, if we cannot strictly to define as a BUG,
>> is, at least, a  "defect" regarding the right typography.  I mean the
>> behavior of footnotes versus the text body contained in subsequent
>> pages.  professionally formatted books, look like this [...] as you
>> can see, footnotes (last footnote) are perfectly vertically aligned
>> with the last line of text in following page, while if we insert a
>> footnote in OpenOffice/Libreoffice, this is what we get [...] an
>> horrible difference between footnote and last line of body text that
>> result not aligned that makes appearance of documents with footnotes
>> very ugly
>
> Each page has an area within its margins where text may appear. If
> there is not sufficient space for a further line at the bottom of a
> page, it will be carried over to the next page, possibly leaving a
> small amount of unused vertical space within the text area of the
> page.  If different pages have different type sizes or different
> paragraph spacing - or even just a different number of paragraphs -
> the bases of bottom lines may well not match up.  In the case of your
> example, the spacing and the rule before the footnote and the reduced
> type size of the footnote itself all add up to mean that there can be
> no guarantee that the bases of the bottom lines will match up.
>
> In order to correct this problem, you need to make small alteration to
> details of one or other page.  It may be that you can remedy things by
> changing the bottom page margin slightly - but if you do that for the
> page style of the whole document, you are likely to introduce similar
> problems on other pages.  The simplest solution may be to increase
> slightly the line spacing on the second page.
>
>> if making this enhancement is not too hard, it will be a great step
>> toward dtp for LibreOffice
>
> It's not clear what you want to happen here.  Do you want the line
> spacing on your second page to be increased slightly so as better to
> fill the page?  Or do you want the space before the footnote to be
> increased?  Or both of these?  Or, if (as would be usual) you had more
> than one paragraph on each page, would you want the paragraph spacing
> to be adjusted to suit?  Or some combination of all these?
>
> It's worth mentioning that you are comparing your word processor
> results with - as you say - the appearance of a professionally
> produced book.  In that case, a quite separate process - "layout" - is
> carried out after the text is finalised.  This is done is layout
> software, not in word processing software.  Any modifications to the
> text - even minor ones - after this would potentially upset the
> appearance, so this is done in the final stages of production.  And I
> doubt whether this is ever completely automated, in fact: rather, I
> imagine that expert user of layout software makes minor adjustments to
> achieve the sort of smart appearance that you crave.
>
> So you are asking for OpenOffice or LibreOffice to become layout
> software as well as word processing software.  I have no idea whether
> its developers would wish to do this.
>
> I trust this helps.
>
> Brian Barker
      I thought I had seen something about this some time ago either on
this mailing list of the A00 mailing list. The topic was "Register
true". If you do a web search you may find the entire thread.
      To do this, you must change the Page style for your document.
1. Open the Styles and Formatting window using F11 to do so.
2. At the top of this window, click the Page Style icon. (4th icon from
the left). The list of page styles appear.
3. Right click the highlighted page style. (If you are not using a
custom page style, this will be Default .)
4. Click the Page style.
5. It is in the Layout settings section (bottom right).
6. Click the box labeled "Register-true".
7. Click OK.
      This is the setting that printers use to make sure the lines of
adjacent pages line up.

--Dan


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siren siren
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Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

On 20/12/12 Dan Lewis wrote:
>  I thought I had seen something about this some time ago either on
> this mailing list of the A00 mailing list. The topic was "Register
> true".
[...]
unfortunately, *register true* does not work in this case and can't help
to preserve the right alignement of footnotes with last line of body
test in following page. Try to believe

current *register true* feature, only helps to keep together aligned
between pages, BODY TEXT in page (only 1 paragraph style). Register true
is calculated on a SINGLE PARAGRAPH STYLE, (this is a defective
behavior, since if you write citations in smaller body, applying
REGISTER TRUE, line spacing will be not coherent with font size)


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NoOp NoOp
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Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

On 12/20/2012 12:27 AM, siren wrote:

> On 20/12/12 Dan Lewis wrote:
>>  I thought I had seen something about this some time ago either on
>> this mailing list of the A00 mailing list. The topic was "Register
>> true".
> [...]
> unfortunately, *register true* does not work in this case and can't help
> to preserve the right alignement of footnotes with last line of body
> test in following page. Try to believe
>
> current *register true* feature, only helps to keep together aligned
> between pages, BODY TEXT in page (only 1 paragraph style). Register true
> is calculated on a SINGLE PARAGRAPH STYLE, (this is a defective
> behavior, since if you write citations in smaller body, applying
> REGISTER TRUE, line spacing will be not coherent with font size)
>
>

It's too bad that you couldn't manage to keep this in a single thread. I
responded in the other thread & provide a screenshot that shows the
footnote in line with the page two text.




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Tom Tom
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Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)

Hi :)
It does take a while to get used to the lists.  Odd weirdnesses are difficult to avoid especially at first.

I missed the screenshot in the other part of the thread but probably it's just because i haven't got that far back yet. 
Regards from
Tom :) 





>________________________________
> From: NoOp <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Sent: Friday, 21 December 2012, 1:47
>Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: typographic freaks: footnotes not vertically aligned to last line of body text in following page (as in good typographic style)
>
>On 12/20/2012 12:27 AM, siren wrote:
>> On 20/12/12 Dan Lewis wrote:
>>>  I thought I had seen something about this some time ago either on
>>> this mailing list of the A00 mailing list. The topic was "Register
>>> true".
>> [...]
>> unfortunately, *register true* does not work in this case and can't help
>> to preserve the right alignement of footnotes with last line of body
>> test in following page. Try to believe
>>
>> current *register true* feature, only helps to keep together aligned
>> between pages, BODY TEXT in page (only 1 paragraph style). Register true
>> is calculated on a SINGLE PARAGRAPH STYLE, (this is a defective
>> behavior, since if you write citations in smaller body, applying
>> REGISTER TRUE, line spacing will be not coherent with font size)
>>
>>
>
>It's too bad that you couldn't manage to keep this in a single thread. I
>responded in the other thread & provide a screenshot that shows the
>footnote in line with the page two text.
>
>
>
>
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