x86_64 Windows build

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T. J. Brumfield T. J. Brumfield
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x86_64 Windows build

There is an open OOo bug that is over 5 years old.

http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=46594

It seems that OOo developers felt this was an unnecessary feature. However,
as users have commented in that bug report, the 32-bit version doesn't work
in 64-bit Terminal Servers, and Microsoft does not ship a 32-bit server
product anymore. Furthermore, Base can not connect to a 64-bit ODBC data
source.

Given that Microsoft has been shipping 64-bit operating systems for 7 years
now, and that there are legitimate use cases where OOo/LibO can't fufil user
needs without a 64-bit Windows build, shouldn't this be reevaluated?

And from a pure perception standpoint, it looks like OOo/LibO is behind MS
Office in this regard, given that MS Office offers a 64-bit version.

Thanks!

-- T. J. Brumfield
"I'm questioning my education
Rewind and what does it show?
Could be, the truth it becomes you
I'm a seed, wondering why it grows"
-- Pearl Jam, Education

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Frank Esposito Frank Esposito
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:36 AM, T. J. Brumfield <[hidden email]>wrote:

> There is an open OOo bug that is over 5 years old.
>
> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=46594
>
> It seems that OOo developers felt this was an unnecessary feature. However,
> as users have commented in that bug report, the 32-bit version doesn't work
> in 64-bit Terminal Servers, and Microsoft does not ship a 32-bit server
> product anymore. Furthermore, Base can not connect to a 64-bit ODBC data
> source.
>
> Given that Microsoft has been shipping 64-bit operating systems for 7 years
> now, and that there are legitimate use cases where OOo/LibO can't fufil
> user
> needs without a 64-bit Windows build, shouldn't this be reevaluated?
>
> And from a pure perception standpoint, it looks like OOo/LibO is behind MS
> Office in this regard, given that MS Office offers a 64-bit version.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>

+2 for 64-bit builds

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Andras Timar Andras Timar
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

2010/11/4 Frank Esposito <[hidden email]>:

> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:36 AM, T. J. Brumfield <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> There is an open OOo bug that is over 5 years old.
>>
>> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=46594
>>
>> It seems that OOo developers felt this was an unnecessary feature. However,
>> as users have commented in that bug report, the 32-bit version doesn't work
>> in 64-bit Terminal Servers, and Microsoft does not ship a 32-bit server
>> product anymore. Furthermore, Base can not connect to a 64-bit ODBC data
>> source.
>>
>> Given that Microsoft has been shipping 64-bit operating systems for 7 years
>> now, and that there are legitimate use cases where OOo/LibO can't fufil
>> user
>> needs without a 64-bit Windows build, shouldn't this be reevaluated?
>>
>> And from a pure perception standpoint, it looks like OOo/LibO is behind MS
>> Office in this regard, given that MS Office offers a 64-bit version.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>
> +2 for 64-bit builds
>
It is on the TODO list. It needs some porting efforts, however. It is
not as simple as recompiling the source code with a 64-bit compiler.

Regards,
Andras

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Frank Esposito Frank Esposito
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

Yes I am aware of some of the difficulties but I think this could be a nice
feature as OOo will most likely not be offering 64-bit Windows builds. And
since MSO 2010 is now available in 64bit....

Just another feature to differentiate LO form OO (IMHO)


-fe



On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Andras Timar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2010/11/4 Frank Esposito <[hidden email]>:
> > On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:36 AM, T. J. Brumfield <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
> >
> >> There is an open OOo bug that is over 5 years old.
> >>
> >> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=46594
> >>
> >> It seems that OOo developers felt this was an unnecessary feature.
> However,
> >> as users have commented in that bug report, the 32-bit version doesn't
> work
> >> in 64-bit Terminal Servers, and Microsoft does not ship a 32-bit server
> >> product anymore. Furthermore, Base can not connect to a 64-bit ODBC data
> >> source.
> >>
> >> Given that Microsoft has been shipping 64-bit operating systems for 7
> years
> >> now, and that there are legitimate use cases where OOo/LibO can't fufil
> >> user
> >> needs without a 64-bit Windows build, shouldn't this be reevaluated?
> >>
> >> And from a pure perception standpoint, it looks like OOo/LibO is behind
> MS
> >> Office in this regard, given that MS Office offers a 64-bit version.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > +2 for 64-bit builds
> >
> It is on the TODO list. It needs some porting efforts, however. It is
> not as simple as recompiling the source code with a 64-bit compiler.
>
> Regards,
> Andras
>
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T. J. Brumfield T. J. Brumfield
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In reply to this post by Andras Timar
I do understand it isn't simply just a matter of compiling a 64-bit build.
Knowing that it is on the TODO list is good enough for me!

Thanks!

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Andras Timar <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2010/11/4 Frank Esposito <[hidden email]>:
> > On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 8:36 AM, T. J. Brumfield <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
> >
> >> There is an open OOo bug that is over 5 years old.
> >>
> >> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=46594
> >>
> >> It seems that OOo developers felt this was an unnecessary feature.
> However,
> >> as users have commented in that bug report, the 32-bit version doesn't
> work
> >> in 64-bit Terminal Servers, and Microsoft does not ship a 32-bit server
> >> product anymore. Furthermore, Base can not connect to a 64-bit ODBC data
> >> source.
> >>
> >> Given that Microsoft has been shipping 64-bit operating systems for 7
> years
> >> now, and that there are legitimate use cases where OOo/LibO can't fufil
> >> user
> >> needs without a 64-bit Windows build, shouldn't this be reevaluated?
> >>
> >> And from a pure perception standpoint, it looks like OOo/LibO is behind
> MS
> >> Office in this regard, given that MS Office offers a 64-bit version.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > +2 for 64-bit builds
> >
> It is on the TODO list. It needs some porting efforts, however. It is
> not as simple as recompiling the source code with a 64-bit compiler.
>
> Regards,
> Andras
>
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nabbler nabbler
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In reply to this post by T. J. Brumfield
In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
android) is more important than windoze.

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Steven Shelton Steven Shelton
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

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On 11/4/2010 3:31 PM, e-letter wrote:
> In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
> android) is more important than windoze.

Really? Because I can't recall the last time I drafted a legal brief on
my cell phone.

- --
Steven Shelton
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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In reply to this post by nabbler
Quoting e-letter:

> In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
> android) is more important than windoze.
>

That's certainly a novel approach: giving 90% of computer users lower
priority so that 1% of users can prepare presentations on their cell
phones. Bound to be a wild success.

P.


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T. J. Brumfield T. J. Brumfield
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In all fairness, Android tablets could become a large emerging market, but
Windows is still by far the predominant market.

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Peter Rodwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Quoting e-letter:
>
> In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
>> android) is more important than windoze.
>>
>>
> That's certainly a novel approach: giving 90% of computer users lower
> priority so that 1% of users can prepare presentations on their cell
> phones. Bound to be a wild success.
>
> P.
>
>
>
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>

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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

Quoting T. J. Brumfield:

> In all fairness, Android tablets could become a large emerging market, but
> Windows is still by far the predominant market.

But how many people will use them for heavy-duty word processing,
spreadsheeting and presenting? LO/OO is a heavy-duty package for
heavy-duty work, after all.

I've tried typing on my stepson's iPad (on the couple of occasions
when I've been able to prise it from his grip) and it's hopeless.
OK for Web surfing, short e-mails, etc, but tablet ergonomics are
completely unsuited for serious work. Even laptops are dubious
(nasty keyboards, small screens, etc).

P.


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T. J. Brumfield T. J. Brumfield
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

I'm agreeing with you that Windows is the dominant market and should be
treated as such.

However, in developing countries Android tablets may be the most accessible
and affordable computing platform of the future. It shouldn't be ignored.

I'd contend the priority should be on the primary platforms:

Windows, Mac OS X and Linux. Next should be platforms of the future.

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Peter Rodwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Quoting T. J. Brumfield:
>
> In all fairness, Android tablets could become a large emerging market, but
>> Windows is still by far the predominant market.
>>
>
> But how many people will use them for heavy-duty word processing,
> spreadsheeting and presenting? LO/OO is a heavy-duty package for
> heavy-duty work, after all.
>
> I've tried typing on my stepson's iPad (on the couple of occasions
> when I've been able to prise it from his grip) and it's hopeless.
> OK for Web surfing, short e-mails, etc, but tablet ergonomics are
> completely unsuited for serious work. Even laptops are dubious
> (nasty keyboards, small screens, etc).
>
>
> P.
>
>
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>


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"I'm questioning my education
Rewind and what does it show?
Could be, the truth it becomes you
I'm a seed, wondering why it grows"
-- Pearl Jam, Education

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Peter Rodwell Peter Rodwell
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

Quoting T. J. Brumfield:

> However, in developing countries Android tablets may be the most accessible
> and affordable computing platform of the future. It shouldn't be ignored.

Agreed -- it certainly shouldn't be ignored, I just think that giving it
priority over Windows is ridiculous, is all.

 > Windows, Mac OS X and Linux. Next should be platforms of the future.

Exactly!

P.


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Robert Derman Robert Derman
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In reply to this post by nabbler
e-letter wrote:
> In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
> android) is more important than windoze.
>  
How quickly things change in the world of electronics.  It wasn't that
long ago, that phones were one thing, and computers quite another.

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Ian-2 Ian-2
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 22:06 +0100, Peter Rodwell wrote:
> Quoting T. J. Brumfield:
>
> > In all fairness, Android tablets could become a large emerging market, but
> > Windows is still by far the predominant market.
>
> But how many people will use them for heavy-duty word processing,

How many people use OOo for heavy duty WP? Certainly not the majority of
users.

> spreadsheeting and presenting? LO/OO is a heavy-duty package for
> heavy-duty work, after all.

But like MSO 90% of the use probably employs less than 10% of the
features.

> I've tried typing on my stepson's iPad (on the couple of occasions
> when I've been able to prise it from his grip) and it's hopeless.
> OK for Web surfing, short e-mails, etc, but tablet ergonomics are
> completely unsuited for serious work. Even laptops are dubious
> (nasty keyboards, small screens, etc).

I am using a laptop now, but I'm using a standard keyboard plugged into
a USB port on it. So for $5 I have all the advantages of a laptop and a
desktop. Screen is big enough but I can plug it into a bigger one if
needed, We have a 42" Plasma and a data projector or 2 here.

Take a phone like the Samsung Galaxy S. Design a netbook style case with
a decent keyboard and screen and a slot to slide in the phone. Lets say
the keyboard and screen are $50. I'd certainly buy that and dispense
with my netbook. I already run OOo, Inkscape, Audacity, etc on the
netbook and practically its one or two apps at a time but mostly I use
it for web stuff, e-mail and WP. Of course I could also take the HDTV
out from the phone and plug it into a 1080P TV screen.

Really we have to look just a little bit further ahead. As a very famous
hockey player said "I'm good because I skate to where the puck will be
not where it is at the moment".

I'd say that it would be worth taking the gamble to prioritise to
Android - OOo works well enough on Windows for most people so marginal
incremental improvements are not going to tip that market at the end of
10 years trying. A real killer on 'phone technology as it develops has a
much better chance but probably that opportunity is already lost simply
because others are beating us there. K-Office on Nokia for a start.

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Ian-2 Ian-2
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 21:34 +0100, Peter Rodwell wrote:
> Quoting e-letter:
>
> > In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
> > android) is more important than windoze.
> >
>
> That's certainly a novel approach: giving 90% of computer users lower
> priority so that 1% of users can prepare presentations on their cell
> phones. Bound to be a wild success.

I recall someone at IBM once saying there would be a need for perhaps 4
computers in the world and someone from Digital saying there was no need
for people to have computers at home. Look at it another way, cell phone
technologies are moving up into the computer space and there are 3 or 4
times as many of these devices than PCs. There is no definitive office
technology on those devices, it's a virgin market ready for exploitation
whereas the Windows market is in decline and already dominated by MS
with almost unlimited resources to protect that dominance (which they
will more violently as their backs get pushed against the wall). I know
which battle I'd rather try to win. How does Google approach this?
Think :-).

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Ian-2 Ian-2
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In reply to this post by Steven Shelton
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 16:20 -0400, Steven Shelton wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 11/4/2010 3:31 PM, e-letter wrote:
> > In terms of priorities, making LO the default for mobile (e.g.
> > android) is more important than windoze.
>
> Really? Because I can't recall the last time I drafted a legal brief on
> my cell phone.

The legal profession is hardly a good precedent for technology
innovation :-)

Ask how many 15 year olds have drafted an essay on their cell phone.
That would be a much more realistic test of the future.

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www.theINGOTs.org - 01827 305940

You have received this email from the following company: The Learning
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Robert Derman Robert Derman
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In reply to this post by Peter Rodwell
Peter Rodwell wrote:

> Quoting T. J. Brumfield:
>
>> However, in developing countries Android tablets may be the most
>> accessible
>> and affordable computing platform of the future. It shouldn't be
>> ignored.
>
> Agreed -- it certainly shouldn't be ignored, I just think that giving it
> priority over Windows is ridiculous, is all.
>
> > Windows, Mac OS X and Linux. Next should be platforms of the future.
>
> Exactly!
Oops!  I deleted the letter I was going to reply to which was on the UI
thread, but this thread is almost as on topic to what I intended to say
so I will stick it onto this one.    First thing, the font selector has
been where it is for so long, that I think it would be a serious mistake
to mess with it.  From the very first WISIWIG word processors it has
been at about that spot, and has worked about the way it does now.  My
first Windows WP was not MS Word, or even Word Perfect, it was a program
that few people today even remember, WordStar.    People just expect
some of the most basic things in a WP program to be where they have
always been, and it is unwise to change them without a truly compelling
reason.

I suspect that the actual typical user of OOo/LO is a home user, who
uses it because they could not afford MS Word, or at least could not
justify the cost of it for home use.  Most of the documents created with
Writer are probably not screenplays, legal pleadings, or technical
manuals, but rather have file names like, Xmas Newsletr 10, or Letr to
Aunt Joan, or Garagesalesign.  The database is probably used most for
things like keeping track of record or DVD collections, or membership
lists for clubs or fraternal organizations.  Little kids use Draw for a
coloring book.  Elementary  school kids use Writer for their school
papers, ones that have to be turned in as hard copy.  If I had to guess,
it would be that the single most common use for the spreadsheet is to do
check registers for personal checking accounts.

I would also guess that many of the businesses that use OOo/LO do so
because someone in management used the program at home and liked it.  
Power user features and capabilities certainly lead to corporate and
government use of the suite, but basic ease of use for simple things is
what gets people to try it in the first place.  

I could be wrong about this, but what I suspect, is that nothing else
could promote the popularity of LO more than having a good users manual
in the download package.  Despite the truth of the old saying "When all
else fails, read the manual".  A lot of users like to read a good manual
to find out what else they could do with a program that they aren't
doing now.  Also I would recommend formatting the manual for 8.5x11
rather than the usual 5x7 so that if the users want a hard copy it won't
result in the usual horrible amount of paper waste that you get with 5x7
formats.  For example being able to get the whole thing onto 60 pages
rather than needing 100.  Or perhaps format both ways, 5x7 for on
screen, and 8.5x11 for printing.  Help functions are OK as far as it
goes, but many times you need a hard copy so that you can read how to do
a thing while actually doing it.

Many times I see the question, how can we be better than Microsoft, this
is one place where this would be easy.  In recent years MS has declined
badly in user support, especially in the area of user manuals.  They may
do all right with the Fortune 500, but with small business, to say
nothing of home users, frankly they suck!  They have also gotten sloppy
with little details about how their software works, one thing I have
noticed, Win 7 files incorrectly, files with numeral titles, as an
example, the following files 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5  end up filed in the
following order 6.5, 6, 7.5, 7  We all know that this is idiotic and
WRONG!  My point is that it shouldn't be that hard to put out a product
that people perceive as better than such junk.  Time for me to get off
of my soapbox now.  Robert Derman

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Robert Derman Robert Derman
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

Robert Derman wrote:

> Peter Rodwell wrote:
>> Quoting T. J. Brumfield:
>>
>>> However, in developing countries Android tablets may be the most
>>> accessible
>>> and affordable computing platform of the future. It shouldn't be
>>> ignored.
>>
>> Agreed -- it certainly shouldn't be ignored, I just think that giving it
>> priority over Windows is ridiculous, is all.
>>
>> > Windows, Mac OS X and Linux. Next should be platforms of the future.
>>
>> Exactly!
> Oops!  I deleted the letter I was going to reply to which was on the
> UI thread, but this thread is almost as on topic to what I intended to
> say so I will stick it onto this one.    First thing, the font
> selector has been where it is for so long, that I think it would be a
> serious mistake to mess with it.  From the very first WISIWIG word
> processors it has been at about that spot, and has worked about the
> way it does now.  My first Windows WP was not MS Word, or even Word
> Perfect, it was a program that few people today even remember,
> WordStar.    People just expect some of the most basic things in a WP
> program to be where they have always been, and it is unwise to change
> them without a truly compelling reason.




> I suspect that the actual typical user of OOo/LO is a home user, who
> uses it because they could not afford MS Word, or at least could not
> justify the cost of it for home use.  Most of the documents created
> with Writer are probably not screenplays, legal pleadings, or
> technical manuals, but rather have file names like, Xmas Newsletr 10,
> or Letr to Aunt Joan, or Garagesalesign.  The database is probably
> used most for things like keeping track of record or DVD collections,
> or membership lists for clubs or fraternal organizations.  Little kids
> use Draw for a coloring book.  Elementary  school kids use Writer for
> their school papers, ones that have to be turned in as hard copy.  If
> I had to guess, it would be that the single most common use for the
> spreadsheet is to do check registers for personal checking accounts.
>


> I would also guess that many of the businesses that use OOo/LO do so
> because someone in management used the program at home and liked it.  
> Power user features and capabilities certainly lead to corporate and
> government use of the suite, but basic ease of use for simple things
> is what gets people to try it in the first place.  




> I could be wrong about this, but what I suspect, is that nothing else
> could promote the popularity of LO more than having a good users
> manual in the download package.  Despite the truth of the old saying
> "When all else fails, read the manual".  A lot of users like to read a
> good manual to find out what else they could do with a program that
> they aren't doing now.  Also I would recommend formatting the manual
> for 8.5x11 rather than the usual 5x7 so that if the users want a hard
> copy it won't result in the usual horrible amount of paper waste that
> you get with 5x7 formats.  For example being able to get the whole
> thing onto 60 pages rather than needing 100.  Or perhaps format both
> ways, 5x7 for on screen, and 8.5x11 for printing.  Help functions are
> OK as far as it goes, but many times you need a hard copy so that you
> can read how to do a thing while actually doing it.




> Many times I see the question, how can we be better than Microsoft,
> this is one place where this would be easy.  In recent years MS has
> declined badly in user support, especially in the area of user
> manuals.  They may do all right with the Fortune 500, but with small
> business, to say nothing of home users, frankly they suck!  They have
> also gotten sloppy with little details about how their software works,
> one thing I have noticed, Win 7 files incorrectly, files with numeral
> titles, as an example, the following files 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5  end up
> filed in the following order 6.5, 6, 7.5, 7  We all know that this is
> idiotic and WRONG!  My point is that it shouldn't be that hard to put
> out a product that people perceive as better than such junk.  Time for
> me to get off of my soapbox now.      Robert Derman
>
Either my email program, or something along the way really messed up the
formatting of this email, running all the paragraphs together.  so I
added several more C.R. between each paragraph and I will send it again
and see if that fixes it.


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nabbler nabbler
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

In reply to this post by T. J. Brumfield
LO is never going to overcome m$ products on their own platform(s).
The biggest market potential by far is mobile devices for ODF to
become the default format.

The majority of people in the world are being introduced to technology
via mobile devices; banking, money transfer, product authentication
etc are now all being performed via mobile phones by people who have
never even seen a PC before caring if it is 32, 64, 16 bit machinery.
LO programmers should forget wasting their time pleasing windoze
people and focus on the future.

I would even go as far as qtiplot and makes windoze users pay for
versions supplied for their platforms.

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Ian-2 Ian-2
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Re: x86_64 Windows build

On Fri, 2010-11-05 at 07:52 +0000, e-letter wrote:
> LO is never going to overcome m$ products on their own platform(s).

Agreed, by the time there is any chance of this the world will have
moved to a different platform. In one way it already has since ARM based
mobile computer devices massively outnumber x86 now.

> The biggest market potential by far is mobile devices for ODF to
> become the default format.

Yup.

> The majority of people in the world are being introduced to technology
> via mobile devices; banking, money transfer, product authentication
> etc are now all being performed via mobile phones by people who have
> never even seen a PC before caring if it is 32, 64, 16 bit machinery.
> LO programmers should forget wasting their time pleasing windoze
> people and focus on the future.

I was in Kenya recently where the majority of the population has never
seen a computer. They have seen a cell phone. There are more people on
the planet that have not PC than have one and the biggest growth in
computer devices in Africa is cell phones. The writing is on the wall,
the only uncertainty is time scales.

> I would even go as far as qtiplot and makes windoze users pay for
> versions supplied for their platforms.

:-) Why not give a business proposal as to why getting LO onto Android
would make good business sense for their search and advertising model,
then they might fund it, it would be a relatively small project for
them.

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